050 - Triumph and Tragedy: A Captivating Story of God's Healing and Steadfastness (with Dr. Kim Snider)

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SHOW NOTES:

God-ordained pregnancies. Home birth turned birth center turned hospital turned C-sections. Babies ripped away from you. Postpartum Depression. Getting unexpectedly pregnant with twins. Your father, who’s your best friend, passing away. Alcohol Dependency. The shock of getting pregnant with twins a second time. Detoxing. Therapy. Grief. The diagnosis of breast cancer. Finding out you’re pregnant again, but now with cancer. Finding out halfway through your pregnancy that your baby has died. Getting your VBAC but not your baby. It’s crushing, it feels impossible, and in her own strength, she never would have made it. But God. This isn’t just a birth story, or several birth stories, this is a testimony of Kim’s journey to finding Jesus, her savior, and of the goodness and faithfulness of our God through every circumstance the enemy tries to use to bring us down in our fallen world. Don’t miss a second of Kim’s story!

Learn more about Dr. Kim and her and her husband’s chiropractic practice here!

Want to connect with us? Have a question?
Shoot us a DM at @surrenderedbirthservices on Instagram, and give us a follow while you're there!

TRANSCRIPT:

I didn't realize I had postpartum depression until about a year after.

I was the one that was, you know, weeks, just weeks out of surgery and birth, up serving wine to people while they held my baby and making dinner.

And God, you know, that thing that's like, what would you tell yourself when you are there, right?

What would you tell newly pregnant you or newly postpartum you?

Mine would have been, sit down, child.

Care for yourself.

Let them hold you, not your baby.

Hi, and welcome to another episode of Surrendered Birth Stories.

Birth Stories, birth education, and the pursuit of surrendering it all to God.

Let's get started.

Hey, everybody.

I hope your week is off to a great start.

I'm excited.

It's finally my church's VBS.

Well, their version of VBS this week.

They call it Summer Jam.

But all four of my kids, so everyone but my baby, they're all going, because my youngest, well, I guess he's my second youngest now, is they're all old enough to go, because it's three and up, as long as they're potty trained.

So, they're really excited.

And I'm excited too, because I will have three hours, Monday through Thursday, in the morning, so not super late at night, but in the morning.

And if you know me at all, yes, I'll have my baby with me, but he also takes a morning nap.

If you know me at all, you will know that I already have a giant list that is way more than I'll be able to get done.

But so many things on that list that I would like to accomplish while they're at their VBS, because, you know, there are just a lot of things you can't do when there are five kids to take care of and with you all day.

So this sounds funny, but I'm genuinely looking forward to deep cleaning my bathroom, because let me just be real transparent here.

It does not happen that often.

Last week, we started reading reviews of the show, which is really fun for me, because I'm always encouraging people to leave a review, because it really does help this show get in front of more people.

But I wanted you all to hear that there are people actually leaving some reviews, and I hope that you'll be one of them.

So this one comes from Minimal Pie.

They say, This podcast has been a gift to listen to this pregnancy.

I have been so encouraged to find a birth podcast that is specifically Christian.

Many in the natural birth world call themselves spiritual, with very vague and broad meanings and no mention of Christ.

I have so enjoyed hearing birth stories from fellow believers who know He holds their lives in His hands and is sovereign over all.

Thank you for taking the time to write that and sharing that.

That's super encouraging to me, and I hope it is encouraging to other parents out there, because that is truly my heart for people to see that God really does hold us all in His hands, and that He is such a central part, if not the main part, of our birth experiences.

Okay, one more new thing this week.

I've wanted to do this for so long, and I kept telling my producer, aka my husband, that I wanted to do this because it just feels like it should.

I don't know about you, but when I listen to these episodes, I always listened all the way to the end.

Now, I'm sure once I get to my outro, most of you just stop listening to it, and I understand that.

I do that on other podcasts too.

But there are some podcasts that I don't do that with, and it's the podcast that I know share bloopers at the end of their podcast.

And I told my husband, I was like, I want to do bloopers at the end.

I always love when podcasts do that.

That's so much fun.

So starting this week, if we have a blooper to share, which I don't know, hopefully we'll have some, but if we have a blooper to share, we are going to tag it on at the very end of the show after the outro.

So we started this week, so make sure you listen in for that.

Speaking of this week, I'm about to introduce our episode, and let me just say, I am not a crier, especially if I'm not pregnant, because we all cry a little bit when we're pregnant.

But if I'm not pregnant, I'm not really a crier.

It takes a lot to get me to cry.

And I just want to say, I was so moved by this story that I cried a couple of times while we were recording it.

This is just such an incredible story, and I really hope that as you listen to this, I really hope that you share it with somebody.

Please send this story to a friend, whether or not they're pregnant, but maybe even if they are pregnant, just share this episode and share this story.

And I really hope that people are just so encouraged in their faith through this story.

It would mean so much to me.

God ordained pregnancies.

Home birth turned birth center, turned hospital, turned C-sections.

Babies ripped away from you.

Postpartum depression.

Getting unexpectedly pregnant with twins.

Your father, who's your best friend, passing away.

Alcoholism.

The shock of getting pregnant with twins a second time.

Detoxing.

Therapy.

Grief.

The diagnosis of breast cancer.

Finding out you're pregnant again, but now with cancer.

Finding out halfway through your pregnancy that your baby has died.

Getting your V back, but not your baby.

It's crushing.

It feels impossible.

And in her own strength, she never would have made it, but God.

This isn't just a birth story or several birth stories.

This is a testimony of Kim's journey to finding Jesus, her Savior, and the goodness and faithfulness of our God through every circumstance the enemy tries to use to bring us down in our fallen world.

Don't miss a second of Kim's story.

Welcome to another episode of Surrendered Birth Stories.

I am your host, Kayla Heater.

And today I'm excited to introduce my guest.

She is a local chiropractor here in the triad.

That's actually how I met her.

She helped me a lot after my fifth baby.

And I'm going to let you go ahead and introduce yourself.

Tell us a little bit about you and your life and your family so we can get to know you.

Yeah.

Thank you so much, Kayla, for having me on here.

I'm so excited to talk about Jesus and birth.

And if we added chiropractic in there, it would literally be the three things I talk about probably 90% of the time anyway.

So thank you so much for having me.

So I'm Dr.

Kim Snider.

I own Village Family Chiropractic in the triad in Kernersville.

We specialize in pediatric and prenatal care.

That's where our passion lies.

I have six children, five of which are here at Earthside, and one waiting for us in heaven.

Our five here are ten years old and younger, and that includes two sets of twins.

So I have three boys, three girls, and a partridge and a pear tree.

That is exciting.

I can't wait to hear about all of their stories.

Yes, yes.

It may take three hours, but we'll get through it.

You know what?

And this is what I tell everybody.

I get asked a lot, well, how long should the stories be?

Well, how much should I share?

What are my parameters?

And I say, let the Holy Spirit lead you.

So if this ends up being a three-hour podcast, then it's a three-hour podcast.

If it's a 30-minute podcast, then it's a 30-minute podcast.

And the Lord is going to speak through you the way He wants to.

So we're just going to let it go.

So there are no rules in sharing.

I just want you to share what you feel like God wants you to share.

But let's get started.

Let's talk about that first baby.

I'm guessing your 10-year-old.

Let's talk about her, because I know it's a girl, right?

Yep.

Yes.

All right.

So tell us about that pregnancy, getting pregnant for the first time.

How did that all go down?

Yeah.

So Annabelle, she's our ring leader.

We were not looking at getting pregnant.

I'll be honest, none of our babies, we were ever like, okay, let's get pregnant.

God was just kind of like, you guys are taking too much time, and I love that you think that you're in control of this timing, so you're pregnant now.

We were so shocked, to say the least.

Pregnancy went amazing.

We had a lot of transition during that time, though.

So we were graduating chiropractic school, moving up to North Carolina from Georgia.

A lot of transition.

I started with providers down in Georgia, very home birth friendly place, so felt really good.

I got set up with some home birth midwives in North Carolina, felt good, was not aware of the environment of home birth here in North Carolina, and how it is just very much not supported by the state, and came just bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, moving up here in August, and I was due in December.

So starting a practice within a practice in High Point at that time, and my sister-in-law at the time was also pregnant.

She had the home birth midwives that we had as well.

Her birth did not go very well.

Baby was safe, she was safe, but did not go as planned.

They had to transfer to the hospital.

Home birth midwives couldn't stay with them.

And our whole family looked at us at that time and were like, you can't be with these midwives.

You cannot birth at home.

You cannot, you know, this, this, and this about our birth.

And knowing that what happened with her where it was very unfortunate, could have happened anywhere, even at the hospital.

We were choosing not to be afraid.

We were very much still on our course and on our plan.

But the pressure from our family got violent at times, to be honest.

I mean, not like physically violent, but you know, I mean, just, it was so much.

It was a lot to go through.

It was a lot to go through.

Did you move to North Carolina to be closer to family?

Yes.

Yes.

So his, so my husband's family is here in the triad, and then my family is in Charlotte.

Okay.

Wonderful.

So they were already kind of like, well, we expect it, you guys would want to do a home birth, your chiropractors, you know, this, this, and this.

But then after all this happened, they were very, and so they kind of kept their opinions to themselves, I would say, for the most part.

But then after that, it was very not the case from one side of the family in particular, not mine.

And not to throw anyone under the bus.

But it was difficult, it was a lot, because I also was experiencing a lot of, you know, seeing what she had gone through.

And it was really close to home, you know.

First baby, never gone through it myself, was just starting in the birth world as a provider.

And it was scary.

I mean, I was very much like, God, I don't know what to do here.

Can you please just leave me?

And he gave me such peace to stay with these midwives.

Our family didn't like that.

And so with a couple of threats, they actually dropped all their clients.

And we still to this day have no idea where they are or what happened to them at all.

Wait, your midwives dropped all of their clients?

Yes.

Whoa.

Yes, this happened.

So my nephew was born in August.

So this was, this probably, this had to have been August or September.

And mind you, again, I'm due in December.

Whoa.

And then they didn't say why, they just disappeared?

They just disappeared.

We had even talked to them after everything had happened, letting them know, like, hey, I understand what happened with our sister-in-law, and it was so unfortunate.

And we have prayed on this, and we feel good moving forward.

So just to let you know, like, we are not writing anybody out or pressing charges or, like, just crazy stuff that was being talked about around all this stuff.

They just dropped everybody, and that was it.

So again, that was 10 years ago, and I still, to this day, don't know where they went or what they're doing.

Wow.

So they were like, well, where are we going to have this baby?

And what are we going to do?

We were very new to the community, had no idea about the amazing home birth midwives that are here that we, you know, know now.

And so we decided to accommodate our family and kind of compromise our families and started looking at the birth centers.

And that's whenever we came across Stateville Birth Center with Marcia and Nicole.

And it was so peaceful.

And so, I mean, God really just, you know, whenever it's just his plan, it's just easy, I feel like, right?

He just puts those stepping stones in front of you and they're just piece after piece after piece.

And so, every time you step to a new transition, if it's where he wants you to be, it's just like, ah, okay, you know?

And that's how it was walking in there.

I'll just never forget that.

I didn't want to do it because I really wanted to home birth, but then I walked in there and I was like, ah, this is where we're supposed to be.

So, that made the decision really easy.

We felt so good.

They were so welcoming.

So, it was just a really easy decision.

So, she was due December 22nd.

I worked up until I started labor, which I started labor on a Friday, and I was 41 weeks.

Well, I was like 40 in five days or six days, something like that.

And I labored all through Friday, Saturday.

I think Sunday, we finally went to the birth center, maybe Saturday night.

Honestly, it's kind of fuzzy.

And I was laboring down there whenever they realized I had an anterior cervical lip.

And so we started changing some things up to try and give my cervix a little break to heal.

And before we knew it, it was a full cervical lip.

And they had asked me to transfer.

And I was like, do I really need to transfer?

Or is this like a protocol, let's transfer thing?

So we're in labor now for like two days.

And she's like, I mean, you can, you can sign something saying you don't want to transfer.

I'm like, cool, let's do that.

That was some time in the middle of the night.

I'm not exactly sure, but a little bit after midnight probably.

And then we kept going.

And that morning is whenever, maybe seven o'clock in the morning, they were monitoring Annabelle.

I didn't know she was a girl at that point.

So they were monitoring the baby in my brain at that point.

And her, she wasn't rebounding.

Her heart rate was just staying low.

And that was when Marsha basically was just like, we need to transfer.

And it was just her tone of voice and the way she looked.

And I was like, okay.

And I was terrified.

I didn't want to transfer.

I knew I was going to end up in a C-section.

If I transferred, I didn't want to go, but it was, you know, just did what we had to do.

And so we got there.

And I was telling Marsha, I was like, I still want to try, like we can move around and do different things.

Like I still want to have her vaginally.

And she's like, absolutely.

We'll make sure that you're still moving.

Dr.

Corsi is going to come and just check on you and see what's going on, like just where we're at.

Basically, it's just making sure everyone's safe type thing at this point.

So he kind of watched me through labor for a little bit.

Well, actually, the first thing he said, and I think I really think this was a God thing.

Everything's God thing, isn't it?

He's just so in the details.

But he said, I'm so sorry you're here.

That's what the doctor said to me first.

And it was so validating of like, just this journey from home birth to birth center to now the hospital.

I mean, it was just so validating for him just to be like, I am so sorry you're here.

And that put me at such ease.

And he had me be a part of the conversation.

I think so many women suffer so much postpartum whenever their birth doesn't go the way they planned because they weren't part of the conversation.

And he had me be part of the conversation.

So he did monitor, he checked my cervix, and it was a full lip still.

She was very, she was 8th in clinic at this point as well.

Her heart rate, he's like, you can look at her heart, you can see her heart rate right here, and you tell me what you're seeing.

And she was just staying real flat and not rebounding whatsoever after contractions.

And he's like, so you can see what's happening.

Like, you make the choice, but she's suffering.

And so we ended up in a C-section with our first, and I was devastated, completely and utterly devastated.

It rocked my whole world.

She had her stomach pumped afterwards because she had a new conium.

They did not ask me if that was okay.

They just did it.

The pediatrician, it was a traveling pediatrician.

I'll never forget him either.

Traveling pediatrician just pumped her stomach, created a tension pneumothorax.

So this is when your lungs and your heart all go to one side.

Because of the pumping?

Because of the pumping.

It disrupts, it disrupts the pressure within the cavity, within your thoracic cavity.

So everything goes to one side.

Very dangerous, needs to be, needs to be handled.

And I'm on the table, being sewed up, trying to find my baby with my eyes.

And he comes over and says, she has a tension pneumothorax.

Do you want me to do a side lung puncture or a oxygen hood?

And I said, who created that thorax?

And he's like, oh, well, babies can be born like that.

And I said, to hell they can.

I was literally fighting this guy, and I was still cut open on the table fighting this guy.

And I'm like, to hell they can, what happened?

And that was the number Marsha actually said.

They had to pump her stomach, and it was created with that.

And boy, I couldn't feel half my body, but I about came up off that table at him.

And anyway, so I said, clearly do the oxygen hood.

I don't want an invasive side thoracic puncture.

And so they just whisked her away before.

So I was like, give me my baby and let me say hi to her at least.

And so Joe was with her, brought her over, and I got her adjusted.

I could at least get her atlas adjusted, so at least I knew she was neurologically safe.

And her little face, I just remember her little face just coming up on my right side, and I put my hands up, gave her a kiss, adjusted her, and then she was gone.

Quite literally just ripped from me.

And yeah, it was really, it was really obviously just really difficult.

I was also still on the table whenever I asked Marsha to use her phone, and I called my girlfriend, who's also a local chiropractor, and I said, hey, we ended up with a C-section.

Can you bring me some milk?

Because I was aware that with a C-section, it may impact your supply.

So I was on the phone with her.

I was like, do you have any milk?

If you could bring it up to the hospital, that would be great.

Anyway, so she did.

She came on up.

She had a whole cooler full of frozen milk for me.

But anyway, so I got back to the room, and I was like, all right, let's go.

Let's go see her.

She's in the little, it's a regional hospital.

So it was right across the hall from me, not like some big NICU, but essentially it was a NICU, just real small.

I was like, all right, well, someone wheel me on over to her.

And they're like, oh yeah, well, once you can feel your feet, you can go see her.

And I was like, no, pick me up, put me in that wheelchair.

I'm going over there.

Ma'am, you need to be able.

And I said, ma'am, you need to get me that wheelchair.

So I just flung myself into the wheelchair myself because nobody would help me other than my husband, of course.

And I was like, let's go.

Let's go see her.

And yeah, I got over to her and she was underneath this little oxygen hood, and she had to be under it for 24 hours.

They wanted me to feed her.

I've already started pumping.

And so she started rooting around.

And it's just so crazy because you're in this sterile environment, and they're like, okay, feed your baby.

And I'm like, okay, well, go ahead and get her out from under there.

And they're like, oh, we can't do that.

So you have to just do it with a little syringe in your finger.

And I'm like, okay.

So I'm trying to figure that out.

They have my hand gloved.

And I don't know why, like this first pic, we have this picture, and I wish I should have sent it to you actually.

We have this picture of me with a gloved hand in my baby's mouth and a little syringe under the oxygen hood.

So I'm having to dip underneath this plastic thing to get to her.

And I don't know what clicked for me suddenly, but I'm like, why are you wearing a glove?

Like she literally just came from your body.

Like, what are you doing?

So I ditched the glove, washed my hands off and went ahead and like at least gave her my pinky without a freaking glove on it.

And that was the first way I fed her.

I stayed in there as much as I could.

And then when I wasn't there, Jo was with her.

And that finally the next day, she was born at 925 in the morning on December 30th.

And the next day, 31st, 1130, she was in the room with me and she was finally able to latch.

So it was quite the it was traumatic.

It was traumatic.

I'm still I'm still living with it.

So interesting story about her story is I've been diagnosed with breast cancer this past August.

I'm sorry, this past October, I was diagnosed with breast cancer.

And I was aware of what's called new Germanic medicine.

And basically it is the scientific study of how emotional trauma can get stuck in your body somewhere and become a physical expression, right?

So from anything from cold, a cold to a respiratory infection, to cancer.

So I started kind of looking into this in regards to the breast cancer and seeing like, was there something that could have caused this?

And with new Germanic medicine, they say that with that, the like most textbook is a child being ripped away.

If it's on the left side, it's a mother-child connection.

So either me to my mother or me to my children.

And on the right side, it is a like married thing.

So like your spouse or your spouse's family or what have you.

And mine was on the left side.

And so I instantly started kind of like going down like, gosh, I don't know, with me and my kids, like, I don't know, I feel like these are good connections.

I don't know.

Me and my mom, like we have a great relationship.

Like maybe there was something that happened whenever I was younger with my mom.

I don't know.

So we started kind of diving into this.

And the most interesting thing, and this just happened a couple of months ago, whenever I had this like, aha moment, was I'm talking, I finally was like, I cannot figure this out my own.

Like I cannot be my own doctor with this.

So I connected with a friend who, he's another doctor up north, and he does new Germanic medicine, a lot more skilled in it than I was able to like wrap my brain around.

So he was like, yes, let's get on the phone and let's go ahead and hammer this out and figure out what's going on.

So we start talking and we're kind of like, okay, maybe it's about, I don't know, this trauma that happened when I was a kid or what have you.

He's like, so tell me about your births.

And I'm like, yeah, okay.

So I start going through it.

And I've done so much work since Annabelle's birth.

I mean, emotional release therapy, talk therapy, counseling, EMDR.

I mean, I was so traumatized by her birth.

I created my own Cesarean support group that went on for years.

And I've done so much work around this, that I'm like, clearly, I am good to go.

I mean, these things stay with you, obviously, but clearly, I'm good to go.

And we start talking, and I tell him the story about Annabelle, and I just start bawling about that portion of her being taken away from me, and me not being able to breastfeed her, and how I had to feed her that first time, and just really the whole thing.

I mean, I just start bawling.

And I'm like, clearly, I haven't worked through anything.

And he's like, yeah, you have worked through it.

It's okay to have human emotions to you, human events that are sad, you know?

But he's like, that's it.

He's like, that was it right there.

She was literally ripped from your breast.

And at that time, the cells started multiplying in some way.

Because I was told the tumor has been with me for roughly 10 to 12 years, is what they had said.

He didn't know this, by the way.

He had no idea how long I was told the tumor possibly could have been there or anything.

And he was like, yeah, so her being ripped, I mean, literally ripped from your breast, like you wanted to breastfeed, you were so concerned about breastfeeding, you're on the table getting sewed up in surgery, calling a friend to give you breast milk.

Like this was very important to you.

And so that trauma settled in that left breast.

And then whenever we chose not to have kids again, any more kids this past summer, he said that that was when the healing started, and therefore, the cells started inflaming or swelling.

So the inflammation started.

He said, so the lump, was it small and then grew, or did it just seem to come on out of nowhere?

And I'm like, it came on out of nowhere.

I do regular breast exams, like I'm very aware of my breast.

I've been breastfeeding for 10 plus years, lactating the whole time, like I'm very aware of my breast, and what they're doing, and that's another reason the cancer was such a shock to me.

And I said, it just came up out of nowhere.

And he said, yeah, that's the healing phase.

So that's where our body, when it's swelling, like you hurt your ankle and it's swelling, that's part of the healing phase, right?

Like it has to swell, so all the autophagous can come and eat all the bad stuff and then go away.

The swelling is part of the healing.

And that's when the tumor was found.

I was like, holy cow.

So it was just like this total, it still blows my mind, honestly.

Like I'm probably not even explaining it right.

Or in a way that makes sense because I'm still kind of wrapping my brain around it.

I'm tracking.

It was just really, I don't know, just interesting of how that connected.

That's fascinating.

I just read The Body Keeps the Score, that book.

Yeah.

So good.

So that like, there's a lot of parallels to what you just said with that.

Yes.

That's such a good book.

So we are going to jump back to birth in a minute, but what does that mean for you now in terms of treatment or healing with the breast cancer, like knowing what you know about that, like where does that leave you now?

So we were talking about that because that's obviously was my first concern of like, okay, so now that I know, how do I prevent?

How do I, is this a treating thing?

Is this a prevention thing now?

And he said, at this point, it's really about your awareness of it.

Like whenever I express my birth story to him, I had no idea.

I still had so much in there.

Because it wasn't just a cry or a tear, like I was kind of fogging up a little bit just talking about it now.

It wasn't that.

It was a guttural heartbreak, again, talking about it, you know?

And he basically was just saying like, this awareness, having an awareness around the healing component of that emotions can arise in your physical being, having that awareness can sometimes just, instead of it building up this mound, help the mound be a little bit more flat, a little bit more stable, a little bit more doable really.

And so I think at this point, it's being aware that that can happen in my body and allowing myself to let it go and feel it in a way that I actually am able to work through it.

Because that's a concern with my most recent pregnancy and birth, is that that's going to cause a recurrence, because David was also ripped from me, essentially, in the New Germanic terms.

So how to make sure that that doesn't create a breast cancer reoccurrence.

And a lot of it is just like the awareness of it, and knowing that I can work through it in a deeper level.

And my kids are helping with that a lot, because they've had a lot of big questions about David.

And I will go more into David, but they've had a lot of big questions that, oh man, the only way I can answer it has been through Jesus.

When like a lot, some of my answers are just, I don't know, you know?

But I think them asking those hard questions, because they don't care that they're hard, they just want to know the answer.

They don't care if it makes you lose sleep at night, mom, whatever.

And I understand I'm going to bed at 8 o'clock, and now I have all these questions that I want to talk about.

They don't care about that stuff, you know?

And so it just makes you have to step up and like heal a different way because you have others healing through you.

So I think that's really helping a lot.

Like my kids are saving me.

I just got goosebumps when you said that.

And I have not been through anything like what you've been through, but my heart is just like, I don't know what the word is, like quenching for you.

I have five kids, too, and my oldest is also a 10-year-old girl.

I think she was born about a month after yours, actually January of 2014.

And then I have, I don't have twins, but I've got down to, well, my youngest is seven months, but I've got a three-year-old and up through, and I'm just trying to picture myself.

How would I respond to this with all my kids asking me all these questions about all this stuff?

Like, I'm just in awe of you right now.

I'm in awe.

Thank you.

Wow.

So going through that trauma and everything that happened with your daughter's birth, the labor, the actual C-section, the procedure that the doctor did that messed with her heart and lungs, and her being taken away, and all of those things, where were you then in your relationship with God?

How did that affect your relationship with the Lord during that time?

It's a great question.

I was not nearly as close to the Lord as I am now.

Where we were then was God was part of my life, because I was raised Catholic, and I was told to go to church and do communion and read the rosary, or say the rosary and do the thing.

We were going to church somewhat, but my connection like relationship with him was almost through someone else.

Like, I would pray, but it would be prayers that were written for me already.

It's hard to explain.

Seeing where I am now with him, and knowing the depth of our relationship that we have.

Like, after I went through everything here, these past eight months, I've never been so mad at God, and so pissed at him.

And at times, I hated him.

Hated him.

I couldn't speak to him, but I knew I needed to pray.

And I knew I needed to, like, I knew I'd get through it.

I wasn't worried that I would hate God forever.

Well, there was a time, there was a time there for, I would say a hot minute, I was kind of like, oh gosh, is this it?

Is this the time I turn away from Jesus?

It was unsettling because I didn't know what to do, right?

Every time I got upset or mad or sad or happy or anything, he was my person.

He was my thank you.

He was my I'm scared.

He was my I feel hate, I feel anger, like, please help me.

So I knew I needed to pray.

I had other people basically stand in the gap for me with that one.

But back then, it was a please help me get through this.

Please help me want to be a chiropractor still.

Because that even threatened my passion, my career.

Here I am a prenatal chiropractor, and in my mind, I just failed so miserably at birth.

Now I do not see it as that at all.

And I don't see anybody else that goes through.

If you would have asked me then, okay, so you think you failed at birth?

Do you think that your patients who are wanting a vaginal birth, who end up in a C-section, do they fail at birth?

I'd be like, no, absolutely not.

All the work they did, no, good for them.

Like, what a beautiful transition and transformational process they just went through.

How amazing.

Okay, so what about you?

Oh, no, I failed.

I failed.

I should have done more.

I should have done better.

I knew, I knew more.

I should have done this.

I thought, you know, and it was just so disheartening to where, I mean, I'm sitting there going, gosh, you're a prenatal chiropractor.

You literally help people, people's babies get into proper position to avoid C-sections, and you couldn't even do it for yourself type thing, you know?

It really challenged my just identity, really.

And so when praying to God, it was really more of a, what rosary can I do?

What prayer is there for a saint?

Which isn't bad by any means.

I just didn't feel that connection then that I do now, but I didn't know it, right?

I didn't know that there was a deeper relationship to be had with him then.

Yeah.

So ask me then how we were doing.

We were doing great.

Ask me now, and I'll be, I mean, we had so much more to learn in our relationship together.

I mean, he knew, but I didn't.

I'm looking forward to hearing when and how that changed.

Yeah.

In your stories.

Okay.

So now, how did postpartum end up going with Annabelle after all that?

Rough.

Real rough.

I didn't realize I had postpartum depression until about a year after.

I was the one that was, you know, weeks, just weeks out of surgery and birth, up serving wine to people while they held my baby and making dinner and, God, you know, that thing that's like, what would you tell yourself when you are there?

Right?

What would you tell newly pregnant you or newly postpartum you?

Mine would have been, sit down, child.

Rest.

Care for yourself.

Let them hold you, not your baby.

I mean, oh, oh my gosh.

When I just think about it, and my boobs were bricks and they hurt so much, my nipple, I mean, and I'm just like, was it red wine or white wine that you were drinking?

I mean, it's crazy.

It's crazy.

So yeah, I remember.

So about a year later, I was out to lunch with another birth worker who specializes in postpartum mental health.

And we were just talking, you know, just sharing what have you.

And she, I was kind of talking, you know, I was talking about Annabelle's birth a little bit and how the last year had been and coming up on her one year.

And she goes, do you think you may have had a little bit of postpartum depression?

And I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no.

I process through and, you know, I work in this field.

Like, I could, I could, I could see it, you know, if it was happening.

And she goes, I'm going to rephrase it.

I think that you have postpartum depression.

And I was like, oh.

And then she kind of went through the list with me of like, everything, just words that I was saying and how she kind of watched me over the things that she'd seen me do over the last year and how I'm my perception of things.

And anyway, she was really the one that helped open my eyes that, wow, I've been suffering and I needed further help.

And thank God she did because it really turned around from there and helped me be able to seek the help that I needed and get into counseling.

I parented better, different, you know, I just didn't realize a part of me was missing, and she really helped me open my eyes to it.

So I was really, really grateful, really grateful for her.

That's a great friend.

Yeah, yeah.

Sometimes friends will hesitate to tell you the truth because they don't want to offend you, and a real friend, they'll stick straight to the truth.

That's right.

Because that's what's best for you.

Absolutely.

So since all these pregnancies were planned by the Lord and not yourselves, how long was it then from Annabelle's to the first set of twins?

Well, we decided, you know what, it's been about three years.

This would be, we should start having a baby.

And God was again, like, you are so cute.

So we decided we are going to, in January 2017, I'm sorry, 2016, we were like, we're gonna start having a baby.

So January goes by, period comes.

February goes by, period comes.

March goes by, period comes.

And I'm like, you've got to be kidding me.

Oh, that was just devastating.

I mean, I have, I found a new, found respect and empathy for my patients going through fertility struggles because it was awful.

And I was, I told Joe, April, I was like, if April doesn't happen, that's it.

Like, I'm done with this, meth.

And period came.

So I told him, I was like, that's it.

I'm just not like, nope, if it happens, great.

And if not, then whatever, we're just gonna let God decide.

And then I was going to Vegas in July for my girlfriend's wedding, and I started feeling real kind of wild and crazy beforehand, nauseous, whatever.

And she's like, you better go ahead and check and make sure you're not pregnant.

And I was like, no, no, no, no.

But sure enough, in July, I found out we were pregnant.

So God once again was like, I said on my time.

Right, right.

So did that pregnancy, did it go smoothly in terms of like health and like how you felt and everything?

I mean, once you got past the nausea?

Their pregnancy was great.

I was, yeah, so in the beginning, like going to Vegas pregnant and first trimester, not feeling great, would not recommend.

Zero out of 10 recommend.

And but once that kind of passed pretty quickly, it was in November where I started feeling kind of psychotic.

And it wasn't November.

It wasn't November.

It was September, September.

So I was feeling kind of psychotic, like I felt like I was losing my mind.

I was like, I know I'm pregnant, but like, what the heck?

These rollercoasters of emotions, I'm not going to be able to deal with.

Like, is there something wrong with me?

And we only do one to two ultrasounds of pregnancy.

And so we went in for, I think by that point, it was probably our first one because we were, I don't know, probably 16 weeks pregnant, 17.

Anyway, so we go in and Jessica was with us.

Jessica Irvin was Jessica Pace.

Yeah, so she came with us to St.

Phil, and that was whenever I was telling Marsha all about it, I was like, I think I'm going crazy.

Like, I'm going to have to live the rest of this pregnancy being a psychopath.

And she's like, all right, well, let's just check on the baby and make sure everything's good.

I'm like, okay.

So she popped the ultrasound on.

There were two heads.

It was so, so, I mean, it was just so cool.

It really was cool.

And I will say, I felt better after.

I was like, oh, that's why it's like double the hormones, double the baby.

This, okay, now I feel better.

And my, my kind of craziness actually went away after that.

Was twin something that you ever thought was a possibility?

Like, do they run in your family at all?

Or was this like a complete shock?

Total shock.

Absolute shock.

The only time I found out that it ran in my family is whenever I told my mom.

And I was like, mom, you got to sit down.

Baby is good.

She didn't know it was babies at that point.

I said, baby's good, but you got to sit down.

Because I got something to tell you.

And she's like, oh, okay, okay.

So I said, huh, you ready?

It's twin.

You know, and she's like, oh, yeah, we all knew you'd be the one to get twins.

And I'm like, what?

Why do those words come out of your mouth?

And she's like, well, you know, because twins run in the family, you know, and on on our side, you know, so Nana had twins and then her Nana, the Nana, her great Nana had twins.

And then I'm like, excuse me.

I do not know any of this.

And it was because unfortunately, either the twins did not survive or one of them had passed.

And so whenever I'm looking at my aunties, I didn't realize that she was a twin at one point or my uncles even.

I have twin uncles too.

I didn't realize that he was a twin at one point.

So anyway, so yeah, everybody apparently knew I would be the one to get twins before I did.

Do you have any siblings?

Do you have any brothers or sisters?

I have, yep.

I have a brother who's 15 years older than me and a sister who's 10 years older than me.

Oh, that's like my husband.

My husband has that.

He's the baby of those age gaps as well.

Yeah.

And I'm guessing they didn't have twins either.

Nope.

So, surprise.

Yeah.

So, our twins are fraternal.

And so, with fraternal twins, it's hyper ovulation.

So, it actually will run on the female side, kind of like genetically being predisposed to hyper ovulate.

So, like every, instead of popping out one egg and ovulation, I'll pop out two or three.

Wow.

Every single time or just?

That's a good question.

I'm not sure.

I'm not sure if it's every single time.

I know that you're just kind of prone to hyper ovulation.

So, I'm not sure.

Well, it doesn't really matter.

Good question.

Okay.

So, now you know you're having twins, and you are realizing why you've been feeling so crazy.

Yeah.

But you said you went back to the birth center.

So, were you planning to deliver the twins at the birth center because I know in North Carolina, the laws are kind of wonky about that.

Yeah.

So, no, I actually hired the birth center midwives and had home birth midwives.

So, my plan, before I found out it was twins, my plan was home birth period.

So, I already had my home birth team in place.

Because now we've been here longer, we're deep into the birth world at this point, and definitely expanded our knowledge and village of who's who in the triad, right?

So, it was easy to go ahead and get my birth team together.

We were feeling good.

I was feeling so often that something was wrong.

So, then we went for the ultrasound, and I just felt most comfortable to get my ultrasound with them instead of some random place.

Right.

But once it was twins, I was like, oh gosh, okay.

Maybe we should look at this because it's going to be a twin VBAC at home.

So, that's whenever I decided I'm going to have the first center midwives.

In case the transfer happens, at least I can labor down at the hospital.

They were very VBAC friendly.

Corsese is an amazing VBAC provider, and I could have my midwives there if I had to transfer.

In my brain, I was like, there's no transferring, there's no Plan B, I've got it figured out.

As if I didn't learn anything from the time before that Burke doesn't go the way you plan.

But I'm five babies in and I'm still learning that lesson.

So yeah, yeah, yeah.

So everything went so well, the rest of the pregnancy.

I went into labor at 41.

Annabelle was born 41.1 and the girls were born 41.4.

So I went into labor, I was like 41 days and 41.2, I think, because I was in labor for about two days.

The first water broke and there was muconium in it at home.

And so my home birth midwife was like, we need to go ahead and transfer.

And so we transferred to Davis Regional, and we ended up in a second C-section.

And what was the reason for the C-section?

Mainly because of the muconium, and because I had been in labor for that long.

And so basically the attending physician there was not for C at this point.

It was some other woman who I don't even know her name anymore, but I did not like her very much.

But honestly, my feelings of failure at that time that I had felt with Annabelle had really dissipated more so.

I didn't feel so intense with it that I had totally failed because I was definitely picking up my game as far as everything I put in.

Plus, just learning from the time before, like, listen, God got this figured out and he does have a plan for this.

Like, you just have to lean into it.

And so I think at that point, like that leaning into Christ and knowing that he's going to go before me and lay, lay things out in the line was really kind of started, like I was starting to get more of that glimmer, more of that glint of that being a reality for me and my relationship with him.

But it was just a glimmer.

Still, it was just a glimmer still.

But theirs, theirs went really well.

They were born March of 2017.

The next year, May 2018, my dad, my very best friend, died of pancreatic cancer.

And devastated isn't the word.

It was the first time in my life, I really experienced that deep, deep darkness of grief and sorrow.

So much so, to where I, my generational pattern that I, a generational curse for our family that I did not think would ever find me, settled in of alcoholism.

And I had no coping mechanisms.

With my family, it is, with my family of origin, it is, we're Scottish too, so this really sets us up for failure with alcoholism.

It is, drink if you're happy, drink if you're sad, drink if you're mad, drink if you're eating, drink if you're not eating.

I mean, like, just drink.

Drink.

Your coping mechanism for anything is to drink.

Celebrating?

Yay, drink.

Sad?

Oh, sorry, here's a drink.

And so that's what we did.

When the patriarch passed on, we drank.

And I found myself at the bottom of a wine bottle, and I didn't think I'd ever get out.

I didn't think I'd ever get out.

It wasn't too bad at first.

It was what it was good enough to wear.

It was, oh, you know, we're just coping through dad's death.

Drinking a little bit more because we're coping, of course, like, hello.

So the excuses started pretty early, June, July, August.

I found out that I'm pregnant again, not planned, in the midst of grief and coping.

I had been out of the office for at least a month, maybe six weeks at that point, and helping my mom get everything together and just dealing with my own grief.

And I found out I was pregnant again.

And it was like I was not happy about it.

I was so sad.

And I hadn't learned it.

I hadn't learned then that you can be two things at one time.

I would, I almost felt guilty being happy, even though I know my dad would have been so happy.

He loved his grandbabies, loved them.

Oh my gosh, his face would light up seeing them.

And he was only 67.

He was young.

He was young.

So I know that he would have been happy.

But for me, if anything made me happy, it made me guilty because I'm like, my dad just died.

Like, yeah, how can I do that?

I'll just forget them and I'll just move on.

Like it was a really, really, really dark time.

So their pregnancy was the worst pregnancy out of all of them because emotionally, I was so not good.

I was not good.

My husband had to take me to grief counseling by enticing me with Starbucks and Target.

He said, go ahead, jump in the car, honey.

We're going to go to Starbucks, get you some Starbys, and then we're heading to Target, and then we're going to go down to Charlotte and see the family.

And I'm like, oh, okay.

Starbys and Target, all right, got it.

I jump in my passenger seat, I'm ready to go.

And he's like, you just got to stop at one place real quick.

I'm like, okay.

So we stop at this random, like we pull into the kind of this little like business park area.

And I'm like, what?

What you got going on?

You know, and he's like, oh, your appointment is in about 10 minutes.

And I'm like, for what?

He's like, free counseling.

And I'm like, for who?

Not for me.

And this is very, that was very bizarre behavior for me.

My background is in psychology.

And I've been in counseling pretty much my whole life, not for because anything's wrong or terrible or my life is what, but because I just really did look at, I really look at it as a way of like, handling, just handling life, you know, it's just good to talk to somebody who's not in it with you.

And it's good prevention.

And so this was really weird time for me, that I wasn't seeking any type of therapy or anything.

Me and God, we weren't on the outs, because there was so many amazing details that he allowed happen with my dad's death, that were so just gracious of him.

My dad fell, and he told my mom, please don't call the hospital, because I don't want to go back there.

I think he knew with that fall, it was the beginning of the end, and he hurt his elbow real bad.

And he called, my mom called me and said, your dad fell, and he wants you here.

And that's just weird for my dad.

But everybody, like, everyone just had a sense of, this is it, you know?

And so I go home, I instantly dropped everything, I went home, and my dad's on the couch, and he lives in Charlotte, so it was, you know, I had to pack up, stay by the kids and drive.

And he's like, well, took you long enough.

My elbow's hurt, and your doctor should go ahead and fix it.

I was like, okay, dad, you got it, buddy.

But for that next week, God allowed me to care for him during his decline, helping him get up and go to the bathroom, or help him go to the bathroom on the couch, whatever he couldn't get up anymore.

And he allowed me to have a dream that kind of gave me an idea of when my dad was going to pass.

That was on the Monday and my dad passed on in the comfort of his home with his family around him on that Friday.

Oh, wow.

I was able to be there holding his hand.

My mom was on the other side of him and my aunt was at his feet.

He said bye to my, he did not say bye, he was kind of already leaving, but my brother was rushing to get to the house but wasn't making it.

So he had to say bye over the phone.

And then my sister, once his transition started, it was too much for her, she had to step out.

And so I was the only one of his children that were there to see him transition to the next phase.

And I was the only child out of his three that he actually saw come into this world.

And I was the only one to see him leave.

And so it was this beautiful gift.

I knew that was God.

I just knew that was him.

Just a beautiful gift that he gave us together.

And he, when my dad took his final breath, the words daddy escaped out of my mouth.

Like I wasn't the one that said it, like somebody else did it.

I didn't even recognize my voice.

And his hand like reached up off of his Bible.

He had his Bible on his chest, and his hand reached up.

And I don't know if he heard me while he was transitioning, and went to reach for me, or everybody welcoming him to his homecoming.

He was reaching up to them, or a combination of the both.

But I don't know, but it was just so beautiful.

And I know that was God.

And so whenever we found out that we were pregnant again, I thought I'd be letting all those memories go by being happy, and erasing those with new happy memories of a baby.

So I had a lot of thought, I had a lot of processing to go through, and I'm grateful that my husband kidnapped me, and forced me to go to grief counseling.

Sounds like a good husband.

It really did help.

It helped so much.

It helped so much.

And she was Christian, and it was so, so good.

She was able to really, really, really lead me, and allow me to see how much God was just in all the details, and helping guide us through.

It was really beautiful.

So what happened with the drinking when you found out you were pregnant?

I couldn't cope anymore.

My coping mechanism was gone.

It was then that I realized I had a severe dependency.

I didn't know what to do with myself.

I think that was another reason why I was so mad, because I knew that drinking was a way that I was able to go about my, like, have my day, but I knew when I got home, instead of working through any feelings I felt about my dad or grief, I could just have a glass of wine and everything would melt away and everything would be fine.

But now that's taken from me because of this baby.

That was my, that was my thought.

I mean, this is how, like, grief just takes your brain and how you usually would be, and then just throws it on a frying pan and mixes it all up.

And so there were times where I tried to convince myself that a little bit of, a little bit of wine would not hurt the baby, so you should just have it.

And that was whenever I reached out to my midwife and was like, I think I have a drinking problem.

Can you help me somehow?

I don't know how, but can you help me?

And that was whenever I went in, because I also have been having really crazy thoughts that, like, the baby had died or there was something seriously wrong with the baby.

Really just dark thoughts.

And so Marsha was like, come on in, we need to sit down and talk.

And so I got there, and she puts a Doppler on.

How many weeks were you?

I was probably 17, maybe 16, 17 weeks around this time.

Because I remember we found out about the babies around the, both twins, says the twins around the same week.

So she puts the Doppler on, she's like, well, because I was telling her, I think something's wrong with the baby.

I'm not feeling anything.

I don't, I just know something's wrong, you know?

And I'm not really, I'm not that person by any means to be fearful.

So she's like, well, let's just check on the baby, and it's just a pure heartbeat.

That'll probably help put some fears at ease.

So she's doing that, and she's not finding anything.

And she's like, well, well, you know, remember last time when we did the Doppler, and we couldn't find anything, and it was because, it was because it was twins, can you imagine?

And I was like, what?

No, I can't imagine.

Stop playing with me, Marcia.

Like, just find this baby's heartbeat, you know?

And she's like, she would like catch us, catch for a glimmer or a second, and then it would go away.

And then, so she's like, you know what?

I know you don't want to do ultrasounds, but let's go ahead and throw one on just so we can make sure everything's good, okay?

Like, I can't get a good read.

Am I okay?

So she does this.

Should we go in?

She puts it, as soon as she puts it on, whoop, two big old heads come right on up.

And I mean, I literally turned, I got whiplash how fast I turned my head away from the screen as if, like, I did not just see this.

And then I slowly turned back, and Marsha is still, bless her heart.

She's like moving the ultrasound around.

Like, I can just see it in her brain.

Her eyes are just sitting there, like, oh my gosh, this woman just came in, told me she's like suffering with grief, having a potential drinking problem on the brink of a psychotic break.

And I'm about to tell her she's having twins again, you know?

And I was like, it's that two heads.

And she goes, yep.

But mind you, Joe wasn't even with me.

Right.

This was literally a panic morning that I was like, convincing myself I could drink, convincing myself something was wrong with the baby, like called Marsha and was like, oh my gosh, please help me, like something is going on.

I called Joe on the way and was like, hey, I'm going into the midwives, like I just got to check on the baby, there's just some stuff, whatever.

And he's like, oh, okay, yeah, no problem, like let me know how it goes.

So yeah, babies number four and five are then cooking.

So then I guess finding out that it was twins, did that help again this time around with like the craziness you were feeling in your head?

It did.

Yeah, it really did.

I felt a lot more peace, one, knowing that the movements were different because there's two again in there, and that my like crazy ride of hormones was a little bit more explainable.

I did choose to get on antidepressants at that time as well.

And we did a dosage that's actually good for, it's safe for pregnancy, but good for alcohol dependency.

And so I got on that, that I started taking those, I think in November, and I was off of them by like mid-January because I didn't want to be on them forever.

And so I really, really beat the street with like counseling and exercising and doing all the things I could to increase my serotonin level.

And by January, I felt balanced enough to where I was able to get back off of them.

Everything kind of settled out after that.

I do think the antidepressants helped a bit while I was, you know, needing it for that short amount of time.

And then knowing again that it was twins, I felt better.

I kind of felt better as much as you can with the shock of like another set of twins, you know.

Right.

Was, did you feel like, I know we didn't really touch on this, but did you feel like the first set of twins postpartum was that significantly more difficult than your first postpartum since you only had one?

Or was it different because you were in a better place or?

No, they were so much better.

They were so much better.

I was still nursing Annabelle.

So the breastfeeding engorgement and all that just didn't happen.

So the pain, a ton of the pain was just not there, which is great.

So it's just still lactating the whole time.

So that helped a lot.

Recovery was better.

I think because I just gave my, I knew from the last time to give myself more grace, to rest, stay in bed, and nobody was getting wine at my house at that point.

You know, not served by me at least.

You know, I'm like, no, y'all sit down.

All right, y'all get up and get it.

I'm sitting down.

So I think like post-partum with the girls was just so much better because I had learned to actually, you know, give my body the time and space to rest and heal afterwards.

And I really, I took that.

I did six weeks post-partum, I'm sorry, six weeks maternity leave with Annabelle.

I did three months with the girls.

Now, mind you, I was also at that point, I had owned my own practice now at that point too.

But I mean, I wish somebody had told me then like six weeks, no, double that, and then maybe that's adequate enough for my first time.

Yeah.

But yeah, so I took three months, and I was in such a better space with that post-partum, for sure.

So then finding out it was another set of twins this time wasn't necessarily as shocking maybe as the first time, or was it just as shocking still?

Gosh, I would say, that's a great question.

Probably just as shocking because it was like, is that really happening?

But then there was a little nod from God there, because then we also found out it wasn't the same day.

We came back for the anatomy scan, maybe like 22, 23 weeks, and that they are boys.

And I felt like that was really a nod from God and my dad, because he would always joke, like he loved his granddaughters, but he would always joke like, so when you're giving me a grandson, you know?

And I was like, wow, like it wasn't just one grandson, it's two grandsons.

Like that is, I don't know, I just felt like so connected to them in that way too, where it just really helped my grief.

Knowing that they are boys, and I don't know how much I knew he wanted to see me raising boys, and he wanted a grandson from like from my line, and I don't know, he was just, it was just really, I just felt really connected to him.

One of my boys actually has his name, not his full name, but his name as a middle name, because I was in the shower and I had my dad's playlist on.

And one of the boys just started like dancing like crazy.

And I was like, oh my gosh, well, you are going to be Clyde, because his name was Orville Clyde Snider.

And so I named my boy Patrick Clyde Bonkie.

So, but it was because he started dancing to Granddad's song.

So, yeah, so I didn't see what them went well.

I was at that point, I was like, okay, we're doing all the things VBAC again, like we go and get this VBAC.

I tried Home Birth, I tried Birth Center.

Let's do with a VBAC friendly doctor in the hospital.

So, I went with Dorn at High Point Regional, and he has terrible bedside manner, but he knows his place, and I like that about him, and he's really honest about it.

He's like, you know, I'm an OB, like if you see me, like I'm a surgeon.

If you see me, I want to do surgery.

I'm not here to hold your hand and tell you you're doing a great job during labor, like that's what a dualist for.

And I appreciate that, like it's, you know, it's crass, but I appreciate it because I'm like, good, at least you know, like, where you should be, you know, like, leaving a birthing woman alone.

And so I felt really good going with him.

He was very supportive.

I mean, he was like, I was like, and I'm not going to be doing any inductions.

He's like, I know you're not going to do inductions.

Inductions are counter, they're indicated for VBAC.

Don't you know that?

I'm like, I do know that.

That's why I said, I'm not doing it.

So he was just very, very like, kind of, you know, fun to work with and easy to work with.

He really was, he just, he was easy to work with.

And I went into labor on a Monday, and they were born on a, on, so I did for them, that that was a big thing with them.

And I know why this happened.

They were breech, both of them, head up.

And I did all the things to try and get them head down, except fully integrating what had happened with my dad.

And I really think my grief kept them head up.

One thing I talk with my patients a lot about with breech babies is, you know, they can feel you, your, your fear, your pain, your sorrow.

They can feel everything that you're experiencing.

And so, especially if it happened after like a trauma, like losing somebody or what have you, they just want to be close to your heart.

You know, they're part of you, so they want to protect you.

And so if they feel like you need them in that way, then maybe they're going head up so they can be closer to your heart to try and protect you.

And so I really felt like both my boys were just really going through that grief about my dad with me.

And just stayed head up the entire time.

I did not lose hope though, even when labor happened, I was like, I've seen it happen.

People go into labor and those babies go head down in labor.

So this is that's what's going to happen.

They're going to go head down in labor.

So I didn't tell anyone I was in labor on Monday.

I was like, Joe, you know, he's like, you doing all right?

Need me come home?

I'm like, no, everything's good.

Everything's good until he came home that night.

And he's like, how long has this been going on?

I'm like, I don't know, maybe like 10 hours or something.

He's like, what?

But unfortunately, that night it slowed down or by the morning, it slowed down and I went into prodromal Tuesday, Wednesday.

So it was erratic all day because, you know, they weren't able to push down on the cervix properly.

So it's just erratic contractions and all day long, they would spread out during the day, and then they're on top of each other, you know, Tuesday night, Wednesday night.

And then, you know, during the day they'd spread out.

I mean, it was just, golly, it was rough.

It was rough.

So Thursday morning, they did not stop.

And I was like, yes, this is it.

And they kept kind of going on top of each other and on top of each other.

And then my doula was on the phone with Joe and could hear me vocalizing in the back.

And she was like, okay, like, so this has been going on since Monday.

Why don't we go ahead and get to at least go to Doran's office?

You know, and I was like, okay, that's fine.

I guess that's fine.

Whenever she heard me vocalizing, I was like, all right, let's go ahead and go in.

So we went to Doran first because he was like, come here first so we can see if the babies are head down because he did not want to do a V back if they weren't head down.

And he heard me vocalizing, I was like, how long has this been going on?

And Joe's like, I don't know, just like a couple of hours since, you know, like last night, you didn't want to wrap me out that I've been like doing this since Monday.

But anyways, he's like, all right, like to the hospital, we got to like, let's go ahead and get this.

You're going to meet your babies.

So we ended up with another C-section.

I was just so glad not to be pregnant at that point.

Like I had never gotten to a point with any of my pregnancies, even going 41 weeks, 41-1 with the first one and 41-4 with the second one.

The boys were 38 too.

Oh, so a lot sooner.

A lot sooner.

And I was so done being pregnant.

I was so uncomfortable.

And I really, I mean, I truly, truly believe that it was because of my mindset, my mental, like, where I was mentally.

I was just not in a good head space.

And so, and I couldn't, I didn't feel like I could get out of it even.

And so by the time we got through this, to that point, I was like, great, like, let's just go, you know?

And I've never gotten to that point in any pregnancy before.

So we went through another C-section.

And that one was pretty rough.

But the boys were great.

They nursed.

I was still nursing one of the girl twins.

And so I was nursing three kids again with them.

And they were born five days before my second twin, my first set of twins turned two.

So for five days, we had four children, a year and younger.

Wow.

It was a pretty wild time.

Postpartum is whenever the alcohol picked back up.

So I didn't drink for a couple of months.

And then once I kind of like, I don't know what happened.

I was like, oh, you're not pregnant.

You can drink.

I did.

And then it just didn't stop.

And I found myself back at that bottle, at the bottom of that bottle of wine.

So much so to where it was a rock bottom.

It was a rock bottom.

Like I saw Mount Everest in front of me.

I knew there was a problem.

I saw Mount Everest in front of me and was like, I'll never ever be on the other side of that.

I'll never ever be able to not drink.

Like I don't ever see myself being able.

I mean, I was Googling like, am I really an alcoholic?

I mean, just stuff that people with a normal relationship with alcohol don't Google.

And I needed help so bad, but I didn't want it either because then I was like, well, then you've got to actually figure out ways to cope with your life, Kim.

So what do you want to do that for?

But it was killing me.

I mean, I was going to kill myself drinking.

Not intentionally, but it would have killed me.

Until one night, I had two longer times whenever basically, I just was drinking the whole time, and then I'd stop, and then I had to recover, and then I went back to drinking.

And this was like 10 days of, not like blackout drunk, but it was not good.

I was on maternity leave, it was not good.

I've never said this out loud to anybody other than like therapists and friends.

I was laying in bed, I was at the bottom of the bed, because the boys slept up at the top, and I would basically sleep at the bottom.

We got a king size bed, so it's the same size all the way around.

And I would sleep at the bottom, and if one woke up, I would lay on that side with him until he went back to sleep, and then I go back to the bottom of the bed.

And then I do, that was how we kind of did our sleeping arrangement with the twins.

And I was laying at the bottom of the bed, and I was like basically detoxing at that point, because I hadn't drank for like a couple of hours, and it was so bad.

The hangover was starting.

I was like, I'm going to die like this.

Like this is how I'm going to die.

And I started just screaming, crying.

And it was, I don't know, a little bit after midnight, and I'm just screaming, and I'm like, God, please, God save me.

There is no, like I'm never going to be able to get out of this.

I miss my dad so much.

I mean, I was screaming, come back, come back, come back, like to my dad.

I mean, just save me.

Somebody save me.

Because I just, I mean, I really was, I was at my rock bottom.

And I laid there screaming and crying for probably an hour and a half or so.

And I say this because it was the night of June 26th, but going into June 27th, which is my dad's birthday.

And I know that's why I was so triggered.

I know that's why I started picking up drinking a little bit more like the week before because I knew his birthday was coming up.

And I'm laying there.

And I kind of like had a moment where I calmed down a bit, and I felt a little bit more peaceful.

And I looked at my phone, I grabbed my phone and looked at it, and it said, Memories of Daddy, was just on my phone.

And it was a whole album of just pictures of my dad.

And it was sent an hour before, which it was about the same amount of time, and right around the time that I was just leading to Jesus to save me here on earth or take me with you now, because I just wanted to die.

And my phone just sent me that photo album.

Now, when I told Joe this, there's a whole thing that happened after, but when I told Joe this, and we're recapping it, he's like, well, don't they do that?

Because it's like your dad's birthday, and you had his birthday in your phone, so it's probably like, oh, memories of dad, whatever.

And I was like, I don't have my dad's birthday in my phone.

I know my dad's birthday.

Why would I ever have put that in my phone?

So to this day, I still don't know why my phone did that, other than it was the Lord saving me and meeting me at my rock bottom in my darkness, the darkest time, and ripping me up out of that hell.

I have not touched alcohol since.

I will be five years sober June 27th this month.

Wow.

And he did that.

That was not me.

He did that.

God did that.

I mean, it was my Mount Everest.

Like I said, there was just no way I ever saw myself never drinking.

And he did it.

That's incredible.

Praise God.

Praise God.

I'm still blown away by it.

I'm still so shocked that he just even cared that much to do that for me.

I mean, it's just amazing.

It's just amazing.

And you know, my dad, my dad was an alcoholic.

He wasn't a drunk.

He wasn't a violent drunk.

He wasn't a, he wasn't a silly, embarrassing drunk.

He was a high functioning alcoholic.

He was a commander in the military.

If you saw him, you wouldn't know it.

But if you knew him, you knew his struggle, you know?

I think that, like, I think God needed to use my dad in this story with me, with in my relationship with alcohol, because I knew the struggle that my dad went through.

Like, I went to AA meetings with him.

I saw him relapse so many times.

And again, like, I never saw my dad, you know, lying in his own throw up or anything like that.

You know, like, like I said, he was high, high, high functioning alcoholic.

But I knew he struggled with it until, up, up until the week he died.

And I think God knew that I had to experience that with him in order to know what could happen with it.

And then he needed to use my dad in my story, or it would have never stuck, you know?

Yeah.

Seeing that photo album was the moment that I, like, I knew my dad heard me.

I knew God heard me.

Even in the depths of my darkest time, at the bottom of my bed, at 1 a.m.

in the morning, screaming bloody murder.

Like, I, they heard me, and that's what made it stick.

God's just so, he just, he just goes ahead of you and just does it all, man.

It's just so good.

So good.

I love hearing the faithfulness of God through other people's stories, because for me, that just increases my faith in our God when I'm struggling.

Hearing other people and how he's answered their prayers and how he's met them at the darkest times gives me hope for when I'm going through a dark time or the darkest time, and remembering that God loves us.

God sees us.

He hears us.

He cares about us.

I mean, he literally gave his son for us.

So like, what else would he not do for us?

And I think about that time when I've gone through, so I thought that was my darkest time I'd go through, right?

I thought that was it.

I was like, all right, I did my time, Lord.

Thank you.

You saved me.

And I thought I was saved before, right?

I had been baptized as a baby.

I went to church.

Like I said, my relationship with God, like I knew he was a good God, and I loved him, and I thought I was saved.

But I mean, like I didn't know the definition until he really did it.

You know what I mean?

Like, I just like so deep did it, just saved me from a place I never thought I could ever come out of.

And I thought that was my darkest time.

But now I'm realizing he did that to show me that when you are in that darkest time, like you're saying, when you're in dark time, you hear other people's stories, it's inspiring.

Like be inspired by your own testimony.

I think about back on my Mount Everest with alcohol, so many times now, going through what I'm going through, and just knowing that he did it then and he's going to continue doing it.

Let's get into that story then.

So you had your second set of twins, and now you're sober.

You had gone at what you thought was your darkest time of your life.

God pulled you out of it and saved you.

Now you're going along in life.

And I'm assuming, just based on what you said, that this was not a planned pregnancy again.

So how did this latest pregnancy come about?

Yeah, so September of last year, I found a lump in my breath that I went to my midwife about, and she's like, you know, we should get some imaging.

It took about six weeks to get the diagnosis that it was breast cancer.

Five days later, we found out that we were pregnant with our six baby.

So we had two positive tests, one was amazing, and then one was not so great.

So the positive cancer diagnosis and then the positive pregnancy.

We were happy about one of them.

But we were elated.

I mean, I think that I knew I was pregnant before I got the test.

I basically told Joe, like, so when are we going to take this test and know that we're pregnant?

Because during that time of six weeks of not knowing if I had cancer, so many things go through your head.

Mortality goes through your head.

Seizing the moment, your relationships get deeper.

I mean, it was just a moment of, I don't know, a reconnection for me with my friends, with my family, with my husband.

And honestly, at the moment that David was conceived, I was like, I knew, like I just knew.

And it was a, I'm pregnant and it's a boy.

Like that's literally what came in my mind.

I'm pregnant and it's a boy.

I didn't even tell Joe that until like two days after.

I don't even know, I don't know why, but I was like, by the way, I think we're pregnant and that it's a boy.

And he's like, what?

Whoa, cool.

Like, how do you know that?

Do you take a test?

I'm like, no, no, no.

Like it just happened a couple of days ago.

And he's like, oh, okay.

So, but he just trusts my intuition.

And he's like, awesome.

Like, I can't wait.

I can't wait to meet him, you know?

So when I was laying on a massage table, I actually like felt my uterus.

Like, and so it was kind of confirmation for me.

I was like, oh, that seems a little bit hard.

Like, I shouldn't be able to feel my uterus at this point in my cycle.

And then, you know, so then I just knew for sure.

So we went ahead and got the test.

Five days later, we did, we took the pregnancy test after the cancer diagnosis.

Boom, pregnant.

Whole world went after this because we're like, oh my gosh, we're already trying to figure out what to do with cancer.

Now I got to figure out how to navigate it while pregnant.

Like, what?

They make you feel so rushed with cancer.

Like, they wanted me to make a decision like that day.

They wanted me to meet with this specialist and go to this appointment and schedule this surgery then and all within like a week.

And I'm like, whoa, what?

No.

Like, can I just take a second?

Because there's kind of other, there's other things that have just transpired, you know.

We ended up to opt out of any type of chemo or radiation or anything harsh that I just felt was going to harm the baby.

And so we decided to do surgery, but I had to wait till he was 15 weeks.

So that was the end of December, December 29, day before Annabelle's birthday, I went in for a lumpectomy.

And let me tell you, this is not about like the birth, per se, but like, listen to what God did here.

I was initially scheduled for a unilateral mastectomy.

So I was going to get my left breast removed.

And this was not an easy decision, right?

Like it's never, even with cancer, it's not like, oh yeah, just lob that sucker off.

Like I wanted to, I wanted to breastfeed my baby.

Like I, breastfeeding had been such a big, I was still lactating.

I was still nursing both boys when I found out we were pregnant.

And there were four.

I nursed basically everybody until there were four.

And so, I mean, this was such a big part of my identity and my relationship with my children, like cutting off half of that was an easy, it was not an easy decision.

And it was a mournful one, you know, it was, you know, saying goodbye to your breast.

Like it's just, it's just something I wouldn't wish upon anybody.

And so I felt okay about it.

I was forcing myself to feel okay about it.

I was working, I was seeing patients, my husband and I worked together, I'm seeing patients, and suddenly I feel just an immense amount of unrest.

Over lunch break, immense amount of unrest.

This is the Thursday before I'm supposed to have the procedure.

No, two, two weeks, two Thursdays before I'm supposed to have the procedure done.

And there's so much unrest in it.

And I just broke down in the bathroom crying.

I'm like, I'm making the wrong decision.

This is not right.

There's something wrong.

And I'm talking to Joe about it.

I mean, I had to go to my car and cry because I was like, patients were like, it's everything okay, you know.

I had to go to my car and cry.

And Joe came out and checked on me, and he's like, you know, we kind of worked through it.

I calmed down.

And he's like, listen, we just need to tell, we just need to invite God to intervene.

Like, we need to, he's been in the decision making process this whole time.

We need to invite him back into it.

And we need to ask him to intervene if this is not what is supposed to happen.

And so we did, we prayed, and I did, I just asked him, like, Lord Jesus, if this is not your will, then just get in the way, please.

So I calmed down, felt better, went back into the office.

I went about my shift, my afternoon shift, and we're closing up for the night, and Joe comes in, and he kind of busts through the door of my office.

And he like busts through the door, and he's like, you're never going to believe this.

And I'm like, what?

He goes, the hospital called and they canceled the surgery.

And I was like, what?

I said, don't play with me.

Why would you do this to me right now?

I'm very emotional right now.

And he's like, I'm not kidding.

No bont called, and they canceled the surgery.

And I'm like, Joe, like, what does that mean?

Did they reschedule?

Like, no, they said that there was some mis-scheduling.

So I took that as a sign to go ahead and do what I initially felt good about, which is the lumpectomy.

The mastectomy, one, obviously, it's very, it's very invasive, but then also I would have been under longer, which meant the baby would have been under longer.

And so I called and scheduled a lumpectomy, which is just to remove the tumor.

And I was like, gosh, if, and I really just wanted to get it done in 2023, for whatever reason, like for my, my brain, I was like, I just wanted to leave that tumor in 2023, right?

And go into 2024 tumor free.

And I was like, okay, well, if this doesn't happen, then I guess, like, I'll be lucky to get this scheduled this quick.

Like, because it was by that point, it was like December 18th or something.

It was something crazy late in the year.

And yeah, so I called and was like, yeah, you guys need to reschedule or cancel my mastectomy, and I want to do a lumpectomy now.

But I only want to do it if I can get it done by 20, like by the end of this year.

And they're like, oh, I don't know.

And anyway, she's like, oh, please let me check.

And she was gone for like five minutes, which is an eternity on the phone.

And I'm like, that's it.

I'm not going to be able to get it done.

And she's like, okay, how's December 29th?

I'm like, like next week?

She's like, yeah, like, okay, yeah, let's do it.

So we did the lumpectomy, was able to get clean margins.

They did find cancer in the lymph nodes.

I found that out January 3rd.

Two out of four nodes were positive for cancer.

And so I just threw me for a whirlwind.

I really felt like I was right back where I was in October, finding out about cancer all over again.

That part was very, very, very dramatic.

But through this whole time, I had really started growing my relationship with God.

And in 2020, we had found our new, like our current church where we're at now.

And they have just been such a godsend, literally such a godsend for us, because they really helped me develop that relationship, like that friend relationship with God, like talking to him about anything and everything, and being able to go to him about anything.

And that really helped me during this time, because it wasn't prescripted prayers that I was doing, it was just guttural, like, God, where do you want?

What do I do here?

How do I make a decision?

You know, they all seem like impossible decisions.

So please help me, you know?

And so that's, I put everything I had into developing my relationship with God after the cancer diagnosis.

And so to fast forward a couple more weeks at the end of January, January 30th, we went in for our anatomy scan, and there was no heartbeat.

And that was the worst day of my whole life.

Joe didn't hear her.

I saw it as soon as she put the ultrasound on.

He didn't move.

And so I let out like a cuss word.

And Joe looked at me and was like, why did you say F word?

Why did you say that?

What's going on?

Why did you say that?

And because he obviously saw the color draining from my face and me about to just pass out.

And he's like, what's going on?

And the ultrasound tech was like, you know, I'm so sorry.

He's like, what?

Why are you sorry?

What's happening?

And I really think that it was like, I think he knew what was happening, but it was like a panic, like grief had set in already, and he was instantly in denial.

And I had to like grab him and was like, he's gone.

You know, the baby's, he's not here anymore.

He's gone.

He's dead.

And then I kind of just blacked out.

Like, I don't really remember a ton of the rest of the visit.

Apparently, Joe had to get a trash can over because I was, I like was about to throw up and just screaming.

And anyway, so it was a whole thing.

So midwife comes in.

I don't know what she's saying.

Joe's asking questions.

I kind of came, I kind of came to a little bit once another person had walked into the room.

And they were talking about the next steps.

And how we needed to make them sooner than later.

And blah, blah, blah is all I was hearing.

I mean, for that point, I just wanted to die.

So I felt like I was right back where I had been before.

Just wanting to not be there, but this time meaning it.

And the only question that I asked her was if she had drugged strong enough to where I could just like, not feel anything.

And coming from me, I mean, even her face was kind of like, coming from me who won't even take a Tylenol, she kind of was taking it back for a second, and then was like, absolutely, like, here's drugs.

Thankfully, I really didn't need them.

I think that's a God thing too, because I have a, because I do have a history of addiction.

At that point, I wasn't thinking about this.

Looking back, though, I know why God made it to where I could survive that time without heavy drugs.

Because who knows?

Like, who knows?

It's not anything now I would ever play around with.

And I just didn't like how they made me feel either.

They made me pass out, which was nice at first, but I didn't like how they made me feel after that.

So I probably took them for maybe 24 hours, and then I was done.

But we went for a drive after that.

It was screaming and crying and hearing things come out of my body that I never thought possible.

I started hating God.

I hated him so much.

All the good that I thought the baby was doing for cancer.

Like I thought that I was given a cancer diagnosis, like from the enemy.

And then God was like, here's a baby.

Like, here's a happy thing, you know.

Here's something to save you.

And all the time that I had spent, like cultivating a relationship with him and putting my trust in him, like I really, really, really truly felt abandoned.

Like he had just abandoned me.

So we went home and we really just laid in bed for days.

It was on a Tuesday.

We laid in bed for days.

I don't even know what we did, honestly.

It's such a blur.

And we had to tell the kids, there's just no pain like that of losing a child.

Telling your living children that their baby brother won't be coming home though, you know, like that comes pretty close.

They went through, especially my oldest, went through all the emotions I had just gone through that day.

We told them that night, Tuesday.

She went through all the emotions that I had just went through.

I mean, she was upstairs, trashing her room, and then just crying, and then asking God what she did.

Why did you do this?

What did I do?

Like, why did you take my baby brother?

I mean, all this stuff, I'd literally just been screaming in the car.

Like, what did I do?

Why did you take my baby?

Give them back.

Why did you do that to me?

Like, she, I saw them all happening in my sweet little 10-year-old's body.

And I just sat there and just watched her and let her get her feelings out.

And then I started, then I started crying.

I couldn't keep myself together anymore.

So then I started crying and she just came and crumbled in my lap.

And we both just wept together.

And the next couple of days were, you know, when are you coming in for the DNC was the question.

And thankfully, going through the cancer diagnosis, I had learned that I was able to say, I'm not ready to make a decision.

I will not make a decision right now.

I will call you whenever I want to have that decision made, and you can help me with it.

Like, God taught me how to do that at that moment in crisis, right?

And so I was able to tell them like, no, I'm not making a decision.

I'll let you know.

I have no idea.

Thankfully, I live in the birth world, honestly, and I have so many friends that were just so, you know, midwives and doulas and lactation consultants that have worked so deep in this world, and they were all so encouraging of please don't do a DNC.

Like, you will be able to see your baby.

Like, you will be able to hold him and feel him and love on him.

Like, please do not do a DNC.

Because part of me was like, I just don't want to be done.

I don't even want to be here, period.

Let alone go through this.

I just want to be done.

The bigger part of me was I wanted to give him a birth that he deserved, you know, one where I caught him, and I could love on him, and we could say goodbye to him properly and take our time.

And so that's what we spent the next couple of days kind of like going over.

Joe was still in a lot of denial.

He demanded another ultrasound.

And I went with it because I knew it was part of his process, but I wasn't expecting anything.

So we went in Friday morning for another ultrasound.

And, you know, obviously, no change.

And then we sat down and talked to my midwife wasn't there, who was there on Tuesday.

She wasn't there that day.

So I talked to the OB.

And he had actually said a couple of things that were a lot different than what she had been telling me on Tuesday.

I was being told like I would need puttose in, and I would need a pick line, and I would need monitoring, and I would need, not like fetal monitoring, but like monitoring me.

For you, yeah.

And that a DNC was the best option and all this.

And I was like, I don't want any of that.

What I want is that, like I have enough midwife friends, they would have just given me the servidil at home, and I could have just done this at home.

Joe did not want to do it at home, mainly for the emotional proponent of it, because he just didn't know what that was going to look like emotionally afterwards.

Yeah.

And so I respected his wishes on that.

But I told the doctor on Friday, I was like, I don't want to put those in.

I don't want to pick line.

I want to be left alone.

I want this to be like, I am just at my house.

If I choose to do this with you guys, I want this to be like, I'm at my house, and I don't see any of you.

And he's like, well, I think at the very least, we're going to need a pick line.

And I'm like, no.

He's like, well, I guess we can cross that bridge if we get to it.

You know, just a typical birth advocacy moment where you're kind of talking to a brick wall.

I was told also that, you know, why would you want to go through all that pain for your baby, you know, not to be like, not leave the hospital with your baby?

And I'm like, clearly you are, you don't have a mother's heart because a mother's heart would understand why that necessary.

Like, I don't have too much shade towards him though, because he did like change kind of the direction of which my head was going with a couple of things in regards to David's birth, which I was grateful for.

And then I was like, listen, I don't really want to be with you if I do it.

Like, no offense to you, but I would rather have a midwife.

And that was whenever he was like, yeah, that's totally fine.

Like you would be with our midwife anyways.

My original midwife wasn't going to be there though, and so it was going to be Amanda, who I had been wanting to meet anyways, and we share a lot of patients together.

And so Amanda called me that day, that was a Friday, and she called me, and the first thing that she said, this woman I've never met, that is clearly just an angel on earth.

And the first thing she said was, I'm so sorry we're meeting under these conditions.

How can I help you have the birth that you want for your baby?

And that was just so the best and the worst.

Everything about David's birth was the best and the worst.

The best thing for the worst possible situation.

And so I told her, I was like, I want autonomy and I want privacy.

I don't want it.

I don't want a pick line.

I don't want any Pitocin.

I don't want anything.

Like, give me something to start labor, and then just leave me alone.

And she said, okay.

So Joe and I left, we prayed over everything about when to start, what we should do.

We went out to eat, and then we agreed to, we're going to start the process that day.

So I had to get like one dose of something, and then 24 hours later, go back into the hospital to start the servitelle.

So we did that, and we go in Saturday morning, February 3rd, at 10 o'clock.

I woke up that morning, and I was instantly regretting, like I was like, I should just do the DNC.

I mean, I was so nervous, I could have just thrown up.

But Joe is just so steadfast on his faith in like how he handles situations.

He was so calm.

And he was like, we're doing the right thing for our baby.

And that was all I needed.

That was just all I needed to hear.

And so we went into the hospital, and I met Amanda for the first time in person.

And she was just as calm and kind and sweet as she was on the phone, and explained everything.

Even with the servidil, where they usually put it up vaginally themselves, right?

Like the provider will.

She was like, there's no reason for me to do this.

Like, you can do it if you want.

Just respecting my autonomy request.

Oh, one thing she did do.

So she tried to advocate for me not to be on the labor and delivery unit at Cone.

She really wanted me to be on the first floor, where there was no living babies being born, and be just more secluded, you know?

And she really, really, really tried to advocate for me to do that.

But because I was 20 weeks, past 20 weeks, I had to be on labor and delivery.

So she got me the very, very end room, and it was right next to the family, the family bereavement room at Cone, where they have for bereaved families.

So I went in, I put sheets all over all the monitors, I mean, we set it up like it was our home, just like I would if I labored in the hospital at all.

I stripped the sheets, I put my own sheets on, I had my diffuser going, music going, lights, all the things.

We prayed over this, we prayed over the tablets, and then I put them in, and labor started shortly thereafter.

I don't know what I was expecting labor to be with him, you know?

I love labor.

I'm like one of those really weird pregnant women that like love the contractions and love the feeling, and like even whenever it's tough, like love the challenge of like getting into a different part of your brain to allow your body to do what it's supposed to do.

And even though I had never like completed the process, you know, as far as like physiological birth, like the leading up to it, like it was always just very enjoyable for me.

Not that the contractions were felt good, but you know, just the whole process.

And I don't know what I expected with him.

I'd never been chemically induced either.

And so those contractions were like definitely more erratic.

He wasn't able to help me.

You know, David wasn't able to help me.

So none of his hormones were being pumped out to like help with contractions or to help move him around and down.

Like it was just a really just bizarre feeling, erratic, tight, no rhythmic moves like I had felt before.

Anyway, so I had started getting pretty quiet.

Joe knew that once I got pretty quiet, like we were getting close to go time.

And so he started getting a little nervous.

And I think emotionally, he was really nervous, like what was going to happen after, you know?

And so he had texted Amanda, like, hey, I think that she's going through transition.

And I pushed twice, and I could feel him.

And then one more tiny little, and then he was out.

And I was kind of in shock.

I was like on my knees, and I was kind of in shock, like, telling Joe's like, is that the baby?

Is that the baby?

Like, I didn't want to look down.

I don't want to like move.

I was like, is that the baby?

Oh my gosh, is the baby?

And just as like that panic was rising, of like, oh my god, my baby, you know?

Amanda and my best friend of 25 years, she's my sister, walked in.

And just in time to catch both me and Joe crumble in our grief.

I didn't know how to move.

Like, Amanda helped me like, pivot my leg and sit down and look at my baby.

And she was so calm.

I mean, he was in call, placenta, everything came out together.

My eye, I felt like my eyes weren't working, like my brain was not comprehending what was happening, you know?

And she, there was no rush.

Like, it was like time kind of just stopped.

And she was like, look at your baby, look at what you did.

Good job, mama.

Like, I mean, she was so cool and calm.

And she kind of walked me through what I was looking at.

There's this little hand, look, there's this little head, look, you know, when you're ready, we can break the waters and you can hold your baby.

And I mean, I was, I started panicking again.

Like, do I want to?

Like, how do I, is he going to fall apart?

Like, what does this look like?

You know, she's like, he's going to be just fine.

And so Joe broke the waters and we got David and I was able to hold him.

You know, I was holding him first.

And then my girlfriend, Erin, she's like, why don't you go ahead and lay back and put him on your chest?

I was like, do I want to do that?

Do I even want to?

You know, and Amanda was like, you want to do that.

And so I'd like laid back.

They put him on my chest.

And that's where we stayed for hours, hours.

We were able to be with him and pray over him and experience him for three hours.

And until we said goodbye and gave him to sweetest little nursing staff lady.

And she took him to the next room and kind of like took picture, like prepared him a bit and kind of took pictures and kind of did that part.

I did not know he was right next door until we're about to leave.

And Joe said, yeah, you know, something about next door.

And I was like, is that where he is?

And so we went, we went over and said bye to him again, and the little bereavement family room.

And then I left the hospital without my baby.

And that was getting home to an empty house.

And after everything that we had just went through, and I don't know, I don't even know the words for it.

I don't know what it was.

It was uncomfortable, I know that.

And so started my healing.

I was still mad at God.

I didn't talk to him at all.

I knew I needed to pray though.

Like, it was weird because I couldn't talk to him.

It was almost as if like, you know what you did, and I'm not going to talk to you because of it.

Like, it was like my way of making him know that I was mad at him.

I don't know.

Your brain is so weird and angry.

But I knew I needed to pray.

Like, I wanted so bad to be able to pray.

I wanted so bad to just like, you know, when you just like pick up that phone, your phone and call your mom or call your best friend and you just, hey, I'm having a hard day.

Can we talk about it?

Like, that was my relationship with him.

Like, I wanted so bad to pick up the phone and talk to him.

But I just couldn't bring myself to do it.

And so Joe did for us.

And then our pastors came over and prayed over us.

Our friends came over and prayed for us.

Like, we had so many people just standing in the gap, you know, taking care of us and keeping that, like, connection for me, keeping that connection between God and I.

Because I knew that I needed it.

But I at that point was just too hurt to even talk about it with him.

But he didn't stop showing up.

I mean, in every aspect of our birth with David, he was in it.

So many things could have gone wrong.

Like, I've worked with patients before where the trauma of losing their baby is then exacerbated by a trauma, a medical trauma on top of it, and another trauma on top of it.

You know, like, things that just a cascade of issues happened, that just made it just so much worse, you know?

And God was just right there in all those little details.

Everything came out together.

There was no trauma of having to go and find the placenta.

Like, I mean, he, it just, all the things that could have gone wrong in an already wrong situation did not.

And I know God was, I know he did that.

I know he did that.

Even though, even, even still, I was pretty mad at him and I had lost all hope.

I'd lost hope in my cancer journey.

I'd lost hope in my life and what it meant.

Like, I just lost hope.

My self-care started to become getting out of bed and standing next to the bed for a minute or two at a time before I fell back in the bed and slept the day away again.

But eventually, my self-care started being, I got up out of bed and took a shower or brush my teeth or went downstairs to stare out of that window instead of staring out the window upstairs, you know.

And I eventually started getting back to life, including having to get back to this cancer.

It was a nice break.

This sounds weird, but like it was kind of a nice break during that time.

I wish I wasn't breathing the death of my child, but it was a nice break not to have to think so much about the cancer.

Like I wasn't at a ton of appointments and, you know, it was just kind of a nice time to not have to think about it.

So then I had to go back to that.

And they were able to do some tests that I wasn't, they weren't able to do when I was pregnant.

Now they were still pushing chemo and radiation.

Thankfully, though, I was able to get the test that would have given me more information to tell me if chemo and radiation was even necessary or a good idea at that time.

And so now that I wasn't pregnant, I could go into these more like invasive tests.

And so I did, I started the rigmarole of bone scans and CTs with contrast, circulating blood tumor cell testing as well as cancer and antigen testing.

And the test results started coming back in, and they were all negative for cancer.

And so six months after the diagnosis, without chemo and radiation and just the holistic therapies I had been doing, I was considered no evidence of disease or they call it NED.

And I know that that was God too, you know?

Like I know that was him, he was giving me my hope back to let me keep my keep my feet going, you know, one foot in front of the other.

I eventually did get back to church.

So in church, like, I'm definitely that person that's like, I'm an expressive person.

So in church, I mean, even more expressive.

I never go to church without leaving crying, you know, or leaving having cried hands up worshiping, praising my Jesus, falling to my knees, do it going up and praying for others, going up and crying at the altar and being prayed over.

I mean, that's my experience in church, kind of all over the place.

When I went back, I didn't know how to go back.

Like, I couldn't worship.

What was I worshiping?

You took my baby.

That's how I looked at it then.

But I knew I needed to be by him.

Like, I needed to be by God.

And so I just felt like, okay, well, I guess I'll just show up.

Like, I don't know how to show up or do this, but I'll show up.

And so I couldn't sit where we usually sit, because another church regular is due the day after, was due the day after me.

And trying to find a new place to sit in church is like a whole other ordeal, you know?

Oh, I know that.

That's uncomfortable as is, because now you're in their spot, you know?

Yeah.

So I just went to the front.

Me and Joe just, I just sat in the very front row that day, and I didn't move.

I just sat there and cried.

I don't think I stood up once.

I may have stood up one time, but I just stood up to cry, really.

And then I just sat down.

I continued crying, and I had so many, like our church is so loving, and everyone knew what had happened and gone on.

Like our pastor, she had lost a daughter, a grown daughter, an adult daughter.

But she's like, you know, one thing that helped me was, you know, somebody like somebody else told everybody at church so that I didn't have to keep having that conversation.

She's like, I'm happy to share if you would like me to.

That way, whenever you do come back, like you're not having to explain things.

And so I was so glad that she did that because, you know, everybody just knew and so they're just poor, outpour of love and support and understanding.

Like when I said, like how I mean, I was in church talking about how much I was just mad at God.

And I don't know what I was even doing here, but I knew I needed to be close to him.

Like other people resonated with that.

And I was just so surprised and shocked.

Like that is not how I was raised to talk to God.

Like I was raised that you are happy and you are grateful, and you are praising God and thanking him for everything he does at all times.

And that is it.

If you have something bad to say about God, don't, you know, like, yeah, that's just not my relationship.

So it was it was a breath of fresh air.

I continued going to church and eventually started singing again.

Eventually, my hands went up again, like my normal.

I felt a little bit more normal, and that just recently started happening.

I've continued my cancer journey.

You know, my therapies that I'm doing, I'm constantly in therapies, and I go to a three week intensive cancer treatment center next month.

Even though there's no evidence that you have it, is it more like just making, like kind of making sure it's all gone and doesn't come back?

Yeah, the way I looked at it is that if they were still pushing chemo and radiation, something intense on that side of things, then I should still be like not get, let my foot up off the gas on the holistic side of things.

Yeah.

And a lot of those two were-

I'm not even just too invasive to do when pregnant also, you know.

So I've really doubled down on a lot of those things.

And I think David did save me.

I really do.

When I have a conversation with them about why I still need chemo and radiation, their answer to me is because it's standard of care.

And I'm like, okay, but there's no evidence of disease.

So why would I?

I have no more evidence of cancer than my husband does.

Are you going to light him up with chemo and radiation too?

And they're like, ha ha ha.

No, of course not.

Ha ha ha.

And I'm like, so then why would I let you do that to me?

And I really think David, because there were times I was like, I'm just going to do it.

I'm going to do the chemo and radiation, pregnant or not pregnant.

And I really think David saved me from from that, honestly.

And I'm not saying I would never do chemo and radiation, but like right now, I don't see the need, but I do see the need to still be vigilant.

Yeah.

You know, I don't, I don't want to ever see those tests come back positive.

Kind of kind of the wrapping up of it all has been, you know, I'm still very much going through everything.

David's due date is June 20th, so I have that coming up.

And then of course, the treatment center coming up.

But you know, the weekend that I delivered him, I hadn't told anybody yet, but we had baptism Sunday at our church that Sunday, the fourth, and I was planning on getting baptized.

I've been baptized as a baby, but not as an adult yet.

And so, instead of being baptized, I was obviously grieving David.

But when I started waking back up at church, you know, because for a while there, I just kind of went and was going through the motions.

But when I started finally waking back up at church and talking with God more again, and praying with him again, praying to him again, we were at church one day and it was Baptism Sunday again.

And I didn't know, I didn't know that it had been.

I actually hadn't been back to church maybe for, maybe the week before I wasn't there to hear the announcement, because I was sick or someone was sick, I remember.

But I got, but I'm standing there and I'm just so like overwhelmed by God's grace for me.

After all the horrible things that I said about him and to him, and I turned my back on him, he still showed up in such big ways in my life.

And I was just so grateful.

I didn't know how to thank him enough.

I mean, I even went up to the altar and like, told my pastor, like, can you just help me just thank God for what he's been doing in my life?

I mean, I'm standing after a cancer diagnosis and losing my baby.

Like, I don't even know how that's possible.

If you would have told me this, you know, a year ago, I would have assumed that I died of a broken heart, that there was just no way I survived this.

And so he prayed over me and I will go back to my seat and people start getting baptized.

Like, you know, the people that had like signed up to get baptized, they start getting baptized, you know, worship songs playing and people are worshiping and praying and all that.

And then I'm just continuing to just outpour my love to Jesus and just like, thank you so, so much for saving me again and again and again, and how you just don't leave me ever.

And I just don't know how to thank you.

I don't know how to thank you enough.

And it was like he came down next to me and said, just as clear as you and I talking, then come to me.

And it meant the baptism, like come get baptized.

And I had every excuse.

I was like, oh my gosh, my hair is done.

I have a dress on.

I've got to take the girls to a birthday party after this.

I'm going to make them late.

If I do, I'm like, I don't have any clothes after, like these people are all signed up, like they brought clothes to change into.

God, I don't even have clothes.

So I can't do it this time, but maybe next time.

And he just came back so strong with the message of come.

And so I turned to Joe, I was like, I think I'm going to go get baptized.

He's like, okay, come on kids, mom's going to go get baptized.

And so we walk up, and I was like, our friend, he's the pastor there.

I was like, do you have any clothes in your office?

Because I want to get baptized, but I have no clothes.

He's like, I've got hunting things, I've got pants, I've got stuff.

You'll be fine.

Come on, let's go.

And so yeah, so then I went up and got baptized, and like Joe was able to do it.

And it just was a way of, I always thought that I would get baptized for me, like to be washed clean, to be able to come to heaven, to be able to be with God and know him better or whatever.

But the reason I really got baptized was to thank him for what he's done.

And it was the biggest thing that I felt like I could do, you know, is to just give myself to him in that way.

And it was a, it was beautiful.

It was, I mean, it's just life changing.

Everything the last eight months has, I've gone through, has been nothing but God's work.

He really is working big things.

What the enemy intended for bad and evil and to crush me, God has really, truly called me by name and brought me up out of it every single time.

And it's not easy.

It's not every day, like, you know, bells and whistles and flowers and everything at all.

I still struggle every day.

But he's so patient and loving and generous, and he just delivers me every single day.

Wow.

I'm honored that you were willing to come and share your story.

I know God is just going to use it to work in so many women's lives, in parents' lives.

I mean, I'm just sitting here already thinking, like you were just talking about how grateful you were and how good he is, despite everything that's happened to you.

And it's just sitting here making me grateful and making me think of all the good things that I have in my life that I need to remember to be grateful for.

And that are truly blessings from the Lord.

Thank you.

Thank you for your honesty.

Thank you for your transparency.

Thank you for your time.

Thank you for your wisdom.

I can't thank you enough for being here and sharing everything that you've shared.

Well, thank you so much for having me.

And thank you for your patience of how long it took to go through these six births.

But this was a really great experience, and it's really helping a lot just to heal out loud and share, especially with David.

I had my first public speaking event yesterday since his passing, and I really thought that I wasn't going to be able to get through talking about talking about anything, period, in public again.

Like, that was another identity crisis I felt I went through.

But talking about him, especially because what I was asked to speak on yesterday, I didn't think I would get through it.

But, you know, being able to share and, like, show the humanity of it all, I think it's just such a good way of, you know, reminding everybody that we're all just living this human experience and that God is in control.

You know, and he's so good.

And he'll show up for you every single time.

And you've never, ever been left alone, not for one second.

Even when you turn your back on him, he's there.

And I just thank you so much for the opportunity to be able to share and talk about that.

It's truly my pleasure and my honor.

Thanks again for joining us today.

You can reach me at Surrendered Birth Services on Instagram, or email me at contact at surrenderedbirthservices.com.

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If you're interested in taking my childbirth classes, birth consultations, or having me as your birth doula, please click on the link in the show notes to take you to my website for online and in-person options.

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We hope you have a great week, and remember, learn all that you can, make the best plans, and then leave it in God's hands.

When I said it was going to be a three-hour podcast, I was totally joking, but here we are.

I think it's a three-hour podcast now.

We're not quite to three hours yet.

We're past two hours, but not quite to three.

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