043 - Father's Day Special: Dad Takeover! (with Christopher Heeter and Paul Jordan)

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SHOW NOTES:

This week, Chris takes over the podcast along with guest Paul Jordan in a conversation on fatherhood, the husband's role in birth support, and the importance of fathers in society. So grab your hubby, and listen in!

As mentioned in this episode:
National Fatherhood Initiative

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TRANSCRIPT:

Hi, and welcome to another episode of Surrendered Birth Stories, Birth Stories, Birth Education, and the Pursuit of Surrendering It All to God.

Let's get started.

Well, hello, everyone.

And I hope you are off to a great start with your week.

Happy Monday, happy whatever day.

I feel like I always say happy Monday, and then I realize, oh, duh, just because it comes out on a Monday doesn't mean you're listening on a Monday.

Anyways, how about this?

Happy Father's Day.

It was Father's Day this week, and I know we had a great time celebrating my husband, who is the best father in the world.

And I know I'm a little biased, but still he is incredible.

We celebrate the day before Father's Day, typically because on Father's Day, he's at church over half the day.

So we started out opening some gifts and some like little things that we had gotten him or thought of him for.

And then I always tell him, kind of our gift to each other in this season of young, young children is you can do whatever you want basically for half a day or a day or something.

Me for Mother's Day and him for Father's Day.

And so he, what I found really funny is what he wanted to do.

He wanted to work on a house project that he wanted to work on, not that I needed him to work on, which you know, ladies out there, there's a big difference between those two things.

So it was fun for him to get to work on a house project that he actually wanted to work on.

And he quite enjoyed himself.

And then on the actual Father's Day, we ended up after church in the late afternoon.

We decided to risk it and say, okay, no naps for the little ones or at least napping on the go.

And we met his very best friend out in Hillsborough, which is like halfway between our two houses.

They live in Holly Springs and we live in Greensboro.

So we met in Hillsborough and did like a fun, I don't want to say epic hike, but we did a fun, we called it a surprise adventure for the kids.

We didn't tell them it was happening until we got there and they got to play with, we call them their cousins because they are very much like cousins because these are very best friends.

So we all call each other aunt and uncle and cousins.

And we went and took all nine of our children combined to like this little path and then creek and then up this trail and to this cliff and look out and on these rocks and just had an adventure with them.

And it was really, really fun.

And I know it was fun for my husband who got to see his best friend, even if it was only for a few hours.

I know everyone seemed to have a great time and we definitely wore all of the kids out for sure.

If you haven't left a review yet for this show, I don't know how many times I'm gonna end up saying this.

It does sound redundant to those who listen every week, but I know that there are several of you who do listen every week, but if you haven't, please go ahead and leave a review of this show.

I promise that is the most helpful thing you can do for this show, is to just leave a review for it, a great review for it.

And that will help with all those algorithms and stuff, get it in front of more people.

And so that is the goal.

You can share it too, share it on your social medias, or share it just with people that you know, people that you know who are pregnant, expecting or maybe even postpartum or thinking about getting pregnant.

Any of those stages, this was just a great way for them to prepare their hearts and minds and their spirits.

Now, this week's episode is unlike any other episode we've done so far, because it's the very first episode that I am not actually in.

I mean, other than this intro.

My husband, Chris Heeter, plays host this week, and he is gonna be chatting with a husband of a fellow guest we've had in the past, Christian Jordan.

She's been on the podcast a couple of times.

She is also a local birth worker in the area with Holistic Heritage Birth Services.

And her husband, Paul, is going to be chatting with my husband, Chris, today on all things fatherhood.

Surrounding pregnancy, birth, childbirth, postpartum, and then just being fathers, and what that means in the light of the Lord and just in our society.

They're gonna talk about all sorts of stuff.

So I have no idea, though.

I haven't gotten to hear it.

So I'm gonna listen right along with you, and I can't wait.

So all the dads out there, and all the moms I'm sure you'll listen to, but this is an episode for the dads.

Happy Father's Day.

Welcome to another episode of Surrendered Birth Stories.

My name is Chris.

You might notice I am not Kayla.

I am the esteemed husband of Kayla, and she has commissioned me to host this episode of Surrendered Birth Stories in honor of Father's Day.

So happy Father's Day to all those fathers out there listening.

Today, we are joined by one of my friends, Paul Jordan, who is not a stranger to the podcast, vicariously through his wife.

But Paul, if you would go ahead and just introduce yourself, tell us some about your family, what you do, and what makes life tick for y'all.

Oh yeah, well, so my wife is sort of an aficionado in the birth community, and she's well known and well loved, and I get the cool job of being, she refers to me as the doodla.

So I get the opportunity to be that guy who listens in on the conversations, and it's become a real fun job to just be a part of it through extension, through her.

But yeah, so we've got three kids, and my wife's been working as a doodla for a few years now, and I don't even know how many years.

I guess, let's see, it's gotta be six, five or six now.

And I'm telling you, it's a wonderful thing, and it's cool that we get to talk about motherhood and kids so much.

And we love our kids a lot, and our life sort of revolves around that.

So it's a beautiful thing, it really is.

Yeah, and I think that that's really unique that you bring that up, because we talk about motherhood, and Kayla talks a lot about motherhood on this podcast.

But today, we're gonna take an opportunity to kind of talk about fatherhood, and what things in the birth world, even in the birth space, looks like for a father.

And so we found it to be really appropriate, considering that it's Father's Day.

And what I'm really interested to know, Paul, is some of your experiences having been through three births, right, of your three kids, and one of which was most recent.

Is that right?

Yeah?

Oh yeah, oh yeah.

Our little Ella May, she was born, and she's, let's see, she's going on four months, I think.

Yeah, oh man.

And I bet Rafe and Lorelai are just eating her up.

Oh yeah, they adore her, and we're very grateful.

You know, it could be a totally different dynamic, and we're so grateful.

They really love her a lot.

Yeah, yeah, so you have three kids.

I know that one of them was a home birth.

The most recent was a home birth, right?

So what setting were all of the births in?

Okay, so the first birth was Rafe.

We had a plan to home birth, and then just there were some things that came up that required us to move into a hospital setting.

Christian, she started developing preeclampsia, and there's several other concerns that were coming up.

And so anyway, we had to move into a hospital setting for Rafe's birth.

But with Lorelai's birth, our second, our daughter, she's three now, we really wanted to try again to make the home birth happen.

And it went off without a hitch.

It was beautiful.

She was born in the water.

So we call her our mermaid baby.

And then for the third baby, Christian said, well, we're doing a home birth again.

And so both of our daughters were born in our bedroom.

And that's always gonna be special to us.

Yeah.

So you have the opportunity or rather the perspective of what it looks like to have a hospital birth and a home birth.

And so it's really interesting because I have the same perspective because our first was born at a hospital and our fourth and our fifth were born at home.

I'd love to know a little bit about what your experience was comparing and contrasting the two.

Just from a dad's perspective or from a husband's perspective, because our highest priority in labor and delivery is the health and wellbeing and support of our spouse.

Absolutely.

And so I'm so curious to know what was it like for you comparing and contrasting the two, and how did it affect your role as a support person for Christian and either one, or did it?

Yeah, absolutely.

So as far as the birth went in the hospital, there was never a concern of a lack of safety as far as that was concerned.

We had a great staff.

We were really, really grateful.

The midwife that we had was very, very involved and engaged, and she presented me with the opportunity, like if you like to catch the baby, and I had the opportunity to catch my son, and that was so special for me to participate in that way.

But also, especially when it's your first time being a father of a baby who's being born, you're nervous as can be.

You're up in stitches just like, am I gonna do it right?

Am I gonna handle this well?

And you're worried about stuff like that.

Like for me, the thought the whole time was, oh man, I don't wanna drop the baby.

But you know, it's so funny, cause now that I've done this three times, I look back and I'm like, it was so silly.

You know, everything was fine.

It was a healthy environment.

That said, the days following that, we had to be in the NICU and in the hospital for a while.

We were there for, I think, a total of five days, I want to say.

And we were just so ready to be home.

And we were very grateful for the staff that we had, but you get stir crazy a little bit after several days being in those walls of the hospital.

In contrast to that, the home birth environment, you get this sense that there's a peace there and you're surrounded by people who love you.

And then not just the mom, but the dad too.

You know, we're surrounded by people who care about us and who very much want the baby to be born too and who are contributing in all the ways that they contribute.

And it was so peaceful and moving.

And so for the second baby, you know, the first one born at home, I actually didn't catch Lorelai because we decided to have me in the tub with Christian for the birth.

But then for the third baby, our second born at home, Ella May, I wanted to catch her again.

And so I had the opportunity to do that.

And that was just so special.

And the fact that it was at home, you know, Christian was at peace, I was at peace, and there's something beautiful about it.

And it feels so natural too.

I mean, you're in a place where you rest and you breathe and you talk and you live life and there you are doing something that is beautifully natural and supernatural.

You're participating in the breath of life, you know, and that's, you know, it's nothing like it in the whole world.

Yeah, and hearing you kind of compare and contrast your experiences, you know, I'm thinking back on mine and looking back, because it was 10 years ago when Brinkley was born in the hospital.

And man, like being in the hospital was exactly what both of us needed in that season of life.

Because at that point, Kayla, I mean, birthwork was nowhere on Kayla's radar.

And for me, I just wanted everyone to be, my main concern was like safety.

And so my thought was like, well, a hospital's a great place to be safe.

And, you know, in terms of, you know, medically speaking, I mean, it's probably one of the best places to be.

But then Kayla having gone through her birthwork renaissance and being able to see and understand more about what birth is, what it looks like, and kind of debunking some of those, I mean, those fears that I had about what, what if something went wrong, you know, that kind of stuff.

You know, and I kind of got to the place where I was just, when we had True, which was our first home birth, he was our, he's our fourth.

And I got to the place where I was like, oh my goodness gracious, like it feels right in this season of life to be in the place exactly like you said, Paul, where we rest, where we commune, where we do life, and we're integrating this moment into our life instead of outsourcing it, you know?

And so that was-

Oh, that's, that's well said.

Yeah, absolutely.

That was a huge realization for me.

And Kayla will tell you that that was her, that was her favorite birth experience because it was, I think it was just because it was her first home birth, because we didn't have to drive anywhere.

We didn't have to, you know, worry about traffic, any of that kind of stuff.

You don't have to worry about being at a certain place at a certain time, or just call the midwife till you're in labor, and you know, she'll show up at your house, you know?

So anyway, I feel so blessed by our home birth experience, but also in the same way, I feel blessed by our hospital experience too, because like I said, it was what I needed during that time.

So talking about that a little bit, I know that both of our wives, you know, in pregnancy, Christian and Kayla, I know historically have both gotten hyperemesis, got really bad morning sickness.

What does it look like for a husband to support his wife in pregnancy, especially when it doesn't look pretty like it does for our wives?

What does it look like for you to support Christian when she's like out of commission?

And can hardly do a single thing?

And what's the reality of that for you and your family?

Yeah, the first reality is I learned that I don't do things as well as she does when it comes to taking care of the home.

I, so what I would say is there's three things, I guess, that I consider the most when I'm supporting my wife.

And not just when she had HG, but also when she had, which is, that's the, HG is, of course, the shortened slang term for morning sickness constantly, and awful, you know, and you hate that for them.

Not just supporting them in those ways, though, but also supporting our wife through the birth and through the postpartum period.

Three things that I always considered were her comfort, her level of rest, and also her nourishment.

And I mean, they're all connected, they're all interconnected things.

With comfort, you know, I tried to emphasize physical comfort for her as much as I could.

But also the home and the role of the husband has to be a place that's safe for her to talk about her feelings about it.

Providing her with an emotional pillow to land on.

That's been something that had I not tried to do that and worked at that, you know, it would have made the struggle so much harder for her, and also would have made the general process of birth even a woman who's not having HG needs physical and emotional support.

But that said, you know, I also tried to consider things like rest, and not just for her, but like, you know, trying to keep myself rested, you know, as much as possible, but you know, you gotta do what you gotta do.

But the more rested she is, the more able her body is to prepare for the actual labor and to heal after the labor.

And so for a mom who's going through it, rest is crucial.

And then nourishment, considering nourishment, that's the third thing that I make a big deal out of.

And, you know, I really didn't have to do a whole lot of pushing, you know, in that regard.

Christian, she was doing all the heavy lifting of caring for her own nourishment, planning it out, making sure that she was doing everything.

You know, she'd had HG before, especially with her third, she was aware of how much of a challenge that was gonna be.

And so she went into it swinging.

I tell you that girl, she worked hard to take care of her body and to try to fight off HG and keep it at bay.

And, you know, she still struggled, but she went into it, you know, bravely.

And the any support that I gave her regarding nourishment was, you know, first of all, giving her what she wanted.

Because when you have HG, it's hard to even get the food down.

It's hard to get anything in your system.

And when she wanted something, you better believe I was going to make it happen.

If she wanted to cook out the sandwich, like a barbecue sandwich at 11 o'clock at night, I was going to find a way.

Man, we have frequented the cookout during pregnancy, first trimester pregnancy more than any other time.

But, you know, trying to encourage her to prioritize her nutrition and nourishment, because the thing is, she's still a mom, especially after she already had our first and then our second.

By the time she was pregnant with our third, she didn't feel like she could let go of her responsibilities.

And telling her, you know, not really, I don't want to say giving her permission, because she doesn't need permission, but I think deep down she wanted me to be able to say, I've got this, you need to rest, you need to relax, you need to try to find a comfortable way to sleep, and you need to eat foods that make you happy, and let me do the heavy lifting as much as I can.

And reminding her to do that, and reminding her to emphasize her own wellbeing, and let me take care of the other kids, that wasn't a challenge in any way for me, but it was something that I had a presence of mind about, and tried to be involved in.

Yeah, it's so interesting, because to anyone who has experienced morning sickness, which is not exactly what HG is, but anyone who's experienced anything close to what hyperemesis is, it's like if you're familiar with Maslow's hierarchy, it's like you automatically, you shift down to just survival mode, and you get to the place where it's like, I need to just survive this season as the mom.

You're saying that as the mom, but my role is to get her through this.

My role is to get her from the first day that she needs to spend in bed, or the first moment that she takes to just take a breather from this nausea that she's experiencing to the tail end where she can start functioning normally again, or semi-normally, and start showing her face.

Because Kayla's experiences have been really intense.

I remember with Drew's pregnancy, she was in the bed for, I mean, weeks, and weeks, and weeks.

And so I was probably about eight weeks that she was just straight up in the bed.

And that's what she needed.

That's what she needed, because we're Enneagram savvy here.

So she's an Enneagram seven, right?

And Christian's a two, right?

Yeah, she's a two.

Yeah.

And so as a seven, her big thing is, I don't want to feel any pain.

Anything to avoid pain.

But here's this thing that's absolutely inevitable.

And so her way of coping is just sleeping as much as possible.

And it helps that you're also very tired during that season.

But like I said, my job is just get her through.

Like, what can I do to get her through?

This is part of servant leadership, right?

It's like, what can I do?

And for me, that experience is, it was very hard.

You mentioned something that you said that it wasn't all that hard to take care of the kids.

And so for me, that was the absolute hardest thing.

The absolute hardest thing was managing the kids because maybe it's just the volume of children, you know?

Or maybe it's just the lack of routine.

I don't know.

Maybe I just don't have enough routine in my life.

But the truth is the hardest part for me was absolutely just managing the kids while Kayla was out.

And you said it earlier, and I totally resign with this.

I realized when Kayla got sick and when she was out with HG that she is so much better at running this house than I am.

I have to try to figure it out as I go along.

You know what I mean?

So I think that we can both collectively say that we are absolutely blessed by our wives because we realized in those moments just how much they contribute, and just to try to be in their shoes and be the master of all trades while they're out.

It's just tough.

I don't know if an analogy is suitable for it, but during that season, we're to be Samwise.

We're supposed to be her Samwise for all the Tolkien fans out there.

Yes, all right.

We're carrying her up as much as we can, as far as we're able.

Oh, that's good, man.

That's so good.

That's a great analogy.

So we kind of covered first trimester, but second trimester for us is a little bit of a breeze in terms of hormones level out, Kayla feels good.

I don't know what it's like for y'all, but when third trimester hits, then your body just kind of starts to shift around and you start getting bigger and carrying that, in our case, the big 10 pound babies.

It gets hard.

It gets really difficult.

So just, I'd be curious to know, what does that look like for y'all?

What does that look like for you as far as supporting Christian during that third trimester when she's just like, well, I'm ready for this baby to be out?

I mean, yeah, I'm telling you, the second trimester is definitely easier on her, I would say.

But I mean, at that point, you're coming in the homestretch.

And yes, she does eventually, she gets to the point where she says, any day now, any day would be great.

And this is part of where the emotional vulnerability side of considering her comfort comes in on is you got to have open ears and remembering to listen and remembering to take the time to listen.

And the hardest part for me as the man is not offering solutions because we both know that there is no solution but one.

There's only one way that the season of struggle comes to a close and that's when you're holding the baby.

And so not trying to tell her what she needs, just trying to hear what she needs.

That is something that it's hard to remember to do, but if a husband can master it, then they'll have a great time at it.

Yeah.

I think this is just about a universal truth for men in general.

I think so too.

Yeah.

When Kayla gets in third trimester, we are on so many walks, man.

We are at the park.

We are just about anywhere.

And so it's kind of interesting, like our kids, they are very familiar with Kayla doing the waddle.

Waddling up and down the asphalt or waddling up and down the trail, especially during the end where we're trying to just get the baby out.

But for me, it kind of comes back to a little bit.

I mean, I guess this is a common thread through the whole pregnancy, but when there's a need that Kayla has during pregnancy, I want to do everything that I can to fulfill that need.

Because the truth is, she's doing a lot of legwork in bringing this baby into the world, and I need to do my part in order to make sure that she can do that.

And that is, I see that as one of my biggest roles as a husband in pregnancy in general.

So that is one of my big convictions for sure.

Well, I think there's an instinct, you mentioned earlier the instinct to care for the health and well-being, the safety of mom and the baby, those are instincts for us.

Another instinct is to provide.

And if we don't feel like we're providing, then that's hard for a man.

And so it's not just, I would say, especially in the season of pregnancy and birth and postpartum period, not just needs, but wants whenever you can.

That's like something that you feel yourself fighting for.

Yeah, because that's what adds a little bit of spice to this mundane portion of life.

So, I mean, anytime you have to endure something, I mean, it's the frilly stuff.

It's the extra flavor that makes it tolerable or more tolerable.

So in our case, it was cookout milkshakes to come back to that.

So that was a pregnancy craving and something after the fact, you know, that we were just like, oh, yeah, that's just going to make this moment better.

So, yeah, you know, Christian, she went like as far as like for the immediately postpartum, so like right after the baby was born, she went through so much planning.

She wanted it to be right.

She had a list for me of like, here's what you need to do that I really need you to do on the day of the birth and then also she's a woman who likes plan B.

She likes to have contingencies.

And so she had a list for if we end up needing to go to the hospital, take this list with you.

Here's what you're going to need.

She wanted to make sure that I didn't have any confusion about what my role was.

She wanted me to know these things that I want.

And you better believe I read that thing.

Yeah, sure.

Well, when Kayla does that for me, she knows it's because I probably won't be thinking about any of these things.

Well, it's hard to keep it all in your head.

I mean, I think for my wife especially, it's easy to keep these lists in her head.

She knows what needs to happen.

And I can only really focus on two, maximum three things at once.

And so there's a lot of multitasking involved.

Yeah, such as the male capacity, right?

I'm amazed at Kayla's ability to listen to more than one conversation at a time, to be holding a conversation and to eavesdrop at the same time.

It's amazing.

Uncanny.

So obviously after third trimester comes the baby, right?

And our wives are both doulas by trade.

And I wanted to just touch on this just for a second, because I think it is important for men to hear this, and women to like, but particularly to the men.

Because this is something that I've discovered after having five babies that I wasn't really clear about and wasn't sure about the importance of the role of a doula.

And so for me, thinking about what my capabilities and capacity is emotionally and physically during the labor and delivery process, man, oh man, like it hits me like a ton of bricks every time when we are in the birth space and I am just as much in that moment as Kayla is.

And there are so many moments where I find myself emotionally and oftentimes physically unable to get out of the moment enough to be able to operate as a coach.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Yep.

And so a great example of this is when Milo was born.

When Kayla was, she was laboring in the tub and they had to push away a lip of cervix.

And during that moment, we had been going through this.

I mean, we'd been in labor for a couple hours at this point.

And I could tell that she, and it was her first natural labor.

And when they did that, I could very clearly tell that Kayla was in pain.

And I literally was so emotionally overwhelmed because I love my wife so much and I hate seeing her in pain, like in that moment, that I had to walk out of the room and recollect myself.

And so it was in that moment that I realized that the birth support that we had for that birth was absolutely invaluable.

Oh yeah, well, I mean, you know, the role of emotional support, you know, to some, I think to some men, it sounds like, why do you need that?

Like, but absolutely in the moment she needs it and she needs you there and she needs the Dula there.

And one of the reasons is that Dula is so well-trained, so experienced and not just as a professional, as a Dula, but most Dulas that we know are moms too.

They can sympathize with your wife's feelings in a way that no matter how much you love and sympathize for your wife, you can't feel 100% what she's feeling.

And that's a hard thing to admit, to have the realism to say, I'm not in your shoes, but the Dula has been oftentimes.

And she knows sometimes intuitively what your wife needs when you can't put it into words.

Like you said, when you're so caught up in that moment, I mean, it's not like a normal moment that you'd get caught up in.

There's something sacred happening there.

And I don't think it would be healthy to not have a reaction to it.

Of course, you're gonna get absorbed in it.

And the Dula between her training and experience as a Dula and as a mom, she's there.

She's there to make sure that you're a part of the process in the way that you're meant to be.

Also, usually the Dula is gonna be better rested than you at the point that she comes.

You'll have been on the edge of your seat for a few days sometimes.

Yeah.

Gosh.

And she's cool.

Cool as can be.

She knows what needs to happen, and she's gonna be there on time.

Also, you know, I wanted to mention this.

The phrase many hands make light work, you know, I think applies here.

Oh, yes.

With our first labor, my role was not supremely physical.

You know, I was there presently, but this is my first time seeing a baby be born ever.

You know, I didn't know what to expect.

It was a kind of a scary thing, you know, to admit that you don't, you're out of your depth in so many ways.

And so my role was not as physical.

With our second birth, though, my role was more physical.

I was in the birth tub with her.

I was providing her with as much physical support as I could, as far as like, you know, trying to do counter pressure, trying to rub her shoulders, you know, trying to just do whatever I could to help.

But it still was a new experience for me because it was our first home birth.

By our third pregnancy, I was more physically involved than ever.

I was providing a lot of the counter pressure because she wanted me to, and I wanted to do it.

And, you know, I had had some new experience.

I had had a couple of births under my belt at this point.

So I was like, I got this.

And so I was able to provide her counter pressure and rub her back, comfort her.

I was there physically for her.

And so with each birth, I've become more physically involved.

But if you don't have a backup person there to also provide the physical comfort support, that'll wear you out.

I mean, genuinely, those women are impressive that they can do what they do.

You know, holding counter pressure for hours on end.

I've now done it.

That's tough.

That's tough, that's tough work.

It's wonderful to have that support.

You know, it's invaluable.

Yeah, but also to have somebody who's a little bit more emotionally removed from the situation is really helpful.

Sure.

Because, I mean, like I mentioned before, like it can be so emotionally taxing as a husband to see, I mean, at least for me, it's very emotionally taxing to see Kayla go through labor and delivery, even if she's not having a poor experience, you know?

Oh yeah, absolutely.

Just the intensity of the experience and use the word sacred.

I love to use that term as a descriptor of the birth space because it is absolutely sacred.

There's something that happens in that space that is unreplicatable.

But also in terms of having a doula, they're able to help be an advocate when, I don't know about you, but there are moments where I, because of my emotional state, I can't even advocate for what I thought our birth plan might be.

So for the mom to go through her birth plan with the doula, that is her voice.

When she is in a place where she's not able to see as clearly or wherever, if she's in a place where she's unable to even advocate for herself, which will happen nine times out of 10 or more, the doula can be the advocate for the mom.

And so in my experiences, and it sounds like in yours, man, we need support too.

Absolutely.

Well, hey, and I wanted to ask you, you know, and you touched on, you know, the emotional investment of the moment.

What feelings are going through you when you're watching your wife labor?

Like, what is that like?

Yeah.

So, so for me personally, I very much am a feeler.

I mean, you take a personality test, I'm all in the feeling side.

I live and exist in my feelings.

I let my feelings drive a little bit too much sometimes, you know, but the benefit of that in my opinion is that I can be fully emotionally present when needed.

And I can be in a situation with somebody that I care about and I can be in their shoes with them in their moment of happiness and their moment of pain or struggle.

And it is absolutely accentuated with Kayla, of course.

And so for me, it is a transcendent experience, most certainly, because my feelings in regards to my wife, or my feelings are fully invested in what my wife is feeling.

And my feelings are fully invested in what she's experiencing.

And so for me, it's almost like I'm in labor too.

It's the weirdest thing.

Oh yeah, sure.

I think that that is actually a strong point of us as a duo in labor, because I am so fully emotionally present in that space.

And it's really interesting because I also think that there is a lot of power in being that present with your spouse in labor, because you pray differently.

You pray differently for her than you would any other situation.

Your prayers are different for your spouse than anyone else's, even the doulas, even a support person, even a midwife, if they're a believer.

Your prayers matter in that space.

And they are much, in my opinion, as a husband, and in my experience, being able to pray in that way, that I have a window into the experience, because I'm almost in it with her, and I'm the most in it with her than anybody in the room.

From an emotional standpoint, I get a window into praying like nobody else in that room can.

Oh yeah, for sure.

That's a jumbled up way of saying, I use my emotional experience to my advantage in the prayer world during labor.

But yeah, as a believing man, I'd be curious to know what prayer looks like for you in that space, because describing it as sacred and describing it as something that is transcendent, you get that.

So what does prayer look like for you in the birth space?

And like, I'm just curious to know.

So there's a, I hesitate to say the word myth, but there's a way of thinking about what prayer is and about what the holiness of the moment is that I think does it a disservice.

People can get this image in their head of prayer is where you got your hands clasped, your head is bowed, you're in a contemplative and meditative state, and you're talking with God.

You know, it's just not realistic.

It's just not the way that God operates, I don't think.

I mean, and I'm sure he operates in that way too, but the reality is that God created everything.

And when Jesus incarnated into matter, he changed matter, he changed what it is.

And so holiness, sacredness, beauty, it's act out, it's lived.

What I would say is, in a way, when God enters time and space, because remember, he's outside of time, space and matter, when he enters time and space, there is mystery involved.

There's uncertainty, there's things that you don't know.

I mean, in the Old Testament, God would descend as a cloud.

There were things that couldn't be seen.

And he would enter the temple, he would be in this area, this holy space.

And a lot of people don't know this, when the high priest would enter in to conduct the ceremony that needed to be conducted, they would tie a rope around him because he could be struck dead in the moment.

And they would need to pull him out.

That's how special this moment is.

He was entering into darkness and entering into something that he could not be sure of.

All he knew is God was there.

In the birth space, you're entering into something incredibly real.

But what you're doing is you're not going into a trance.

You're not going into a meditation.

You're going into work.

You're going into live and to be and to participate.

And for me, the birth space is a space of work.

First of all, it's a space where you're doing, you're acting, you're living, you're being, but you're also participating in a way that I'm not sure that I can put into words properly.

There is a certain mystery involved in that.

And I mean, life is being breathed.

I mean, there's nothing like it in the world and in the universe.

There is a weightiness that cannot be denied, most certainly.

And that, for me, that creates a sense of urgency.

It creates a sense of, I need to be on my toes.

I think we need to treat it with that sort of respect, though, you know, it's a big deal.

And we need to regard it with awe.

Yes, right.

Yeah, and you know, it's really interesting because, you know, talking about this, there have been moments in history where fathers were not present at the birth.

And there have been moments in history where, and even recent history, I mean, of course, you know, being fully caught up on Call the Midwife, that you see it all the time.

Yes, you see it all the time, where it's like the dude just sitting outside and he's waiting for his baby to be born.

And then he like reluctantly comes in and says, are they born?

Can I meet my baby now?

And so it's just really, it's interesting.

But when I think about that, it's almost like my heart breaks because there is an experience for dads within being present at the birth of your child that is unmatched.

I'll say like most certainly, going back to like what I felt like when my wife was in labor and delivery, right?

I will say to this day, the day that my daughter was born and the day that I became a dad tangibly was the best day of my life.

And I tell that to Kayla and there's no like, well, what about our wedding day?

It's like, yeah, that was like one of the best days of my life.

When we both looked back on that day that we became parents, that was the beginning of a new chapter that we're never gonna close.

And thinking about the moments in history where the man was not present, and I know that you and I have similar thoughts on what that even does for fatherhood in general, and the effect that that's had on culture, the effect that it's had on even the perception of what a father or a dad is, or even a man.

Oh yeah, I mean, I want to know myself, what kind of an impact has it had on our society and on fatherhood in our culture that they've been discluded?

I mean, and it wasn't like, I mean, I don't think there was this council of men who were asked their opinion on this, like, do I want to be a president for the birth of my kid?

I don't think any of us were asked, you know.

We inherit now a culture where it's normal, but for so many years, it wasn't.

What did those men miss out on?

What an opportunity to experience something beyond them.

You know, like you said, yeah, how sad that must be.

But I actually read a statistic the other day.

It's from the National Fatherhood Institute, I think.

I didn't know that was a thing.

You're gonna have to enlighten me on what that is.

It's a thing.

They have a website.

They have done a study.

One in four children do not have a biological step or adoptive father living in the home in America.

One in four.

Fatherhood is, it's crucial.

It's special.

The fact that it's been lost for a lot of kids is gonna have an impact on the way our culture grows and the way it develops and the relationships that they have.

And I don't know what the solution is to that problem, but I think that fathers having the opportunity to participate in the birth space, I think that it's part of the recipe to help cure some of that and heal some of that in our culture.

And if you can cure the fatherhood problem, I think that you can cure many of our culture's problems.

Oh yes, most certainly.

I mean, I would argue most certainly that fatherhood is one of the large building blocks, if not the cornerstone of a healthy, thriving society.

But like I think about, and let's camp out here for a second, because I'd be curious to know, what's your vision for fatherhood for you and your family?

What does it look like?

And I know that we're getting a little deep and we're getting a little bit off of birth, but I'd like to know, what is it for you that when you think about this potential outcome for your family, or when you think about these things that you can improve even your own being and yourself in order to change the trajectory of your children's lives and your family's future, what does it look like in your head and in your mind to be a father that is, shall I use a term that is so taboo to say patriarchal?

Yeah.

You know.

I think that how a child perceives their own father will inevitably impact the way they see their heavenly father.

And what I'll say is, how do I see it?

What's the vision that I have?

Probably a lot better than I'm doing it.

There is so much that I want for my kids.

And I mean, and I want so much for, you know, we have a son and two daughters.

I want so much for all of them.

But with my own background, you know, my parents were divorced when I was four-ish.

And my mom and my stepdad, you know, they didn't start seeing each other for a long time.

And I have some feelings about this topic because it's so real to me to the importance of being a present father.

And what I'll say is, I want better for my son.

I want him to have a loving relationship with me, and I don't want to lose that.

And for me, everything else that I can do is in the spirit of making my kids' lives more wrapped up in mind as much as possible.

I want to be with them.

I want to encourage them to be the very best that they can be in whatever it is they want to be, to be whoever it is they're going to become.

And in fatherhood, that also means leading them in prayer.

It means leading them in discipleship.

And it means doing a lot of my own headwork, too.

I can't expect them to grow in ways that I'm not willing to grow.

And I can't expect them to be inspired when I can't be inspired.

I think that there's a whole lot of fatherhood that means the dad has to get to work.

And I have to get to work on myself if I'm going to have any hope of getting to work and helping them become the wonderful people that they're going to be.

And yeah, so I mean, the vision is, there's a lot of work to be done.

Yeah, no kidding.

And, you know, talking about fathers in the birth space, for me, my fatherhood journey started in that space.

And so that was my launch pad for any future dream or desire I had for my family was the day I became a dad.

And yes, some would argue that your family was born the day you got married.

Yes, I get that.

But it's different when you start having children because there's a responsibility and a weightiness and a brand new understanding that you don't have it all together, dude.

Yeah.

You need to figure this thing out because if you don't figure this thing out, then your family is gonna look, you're responsible for people, like the upbringing of little humans.

And it was a wild reality check for me in the most beautiful way when I became a dad.

And seeing the birth of my daughter, it changed me, it changed my perspective.

Now, there have been lots of perspective shifts and changes over those years.

But for me, I desire for my children to be followers of Jesus.

I desire for my children to honor and respect and obey Kayla and I, assuming that that will translate and trusting that that will translate to their obedience and respect for the Lord.

And that is a very long and ambiguous, sometimes bedrugging process.

But I think that this journey of fatherhood and of course motherhood, but particularly fatherhood is refining in a way that nothing else is.

I mean, do we realize how much change it brings to us to have the weight of souls on our backs?

Like, do we realize that carrying that changes you?

I mean, just the act of doing the work of loving your family alone, it changes you.

God uses it to shape who you will become.

I mean, and by the end, he uses it to save you.

He uses it to give you the holiness that he wants for you.

It doesn't just magically happen, you know?

It happens through living it.

Parenting is so sanctifying, it's ridiculous.

Oh yeah.

I am a much more patient person than I was 10 years ago.

Five years ago, you know?

Two years ago.

Like, I'm a much more patient person.

There's a book by a dude, his name is Ronald Rollheiser.

Are you familiar with him?

I don't believe so, no.

So he's like this mystic that is an author, and he wrote a book called Domestic Monastery.

And in this book, he describes this story of a woman who had many children, like many children.

And one of her oldest boys got to age.

He left and went and lived in a monastery for like, I don't know, years and years and years.

And he left his family behind and just fully focused on pursuing the Lord or whatever monks do, you know, in a monastery.

And he came back all these years later.

And when he encountered his mom for the first time after he came back, he said, he said about his mother, he said, my mother has surpassed me 10 fold in holiness because of the refinement of what motherhood caused within her.

I think it is absolutely crucial for us to understand and to let parenting be a sanctifying process because it will sanctify us.

It will make us more holy.

And in this case, it makes you, it argues that it makes you more holy than if you were to go off to live in a monastery and devote years and years to just the pursuit of silence and solitude with the Lord.

This shows me that it is a part of God's design to be a parent and to let this process be part of our sanctification.

Unbelievable.

Absolutely.

You know, we're big fans of Gary Thomas and he spends a lot of time talking about sacredness.

Oh yeah, Gary Thomas.

Yeah, yeah.

And we love his book, Sacred Marriage, but he has a book called Sacred Parenting.

And it's exactly on point, exactly on this.

It's transformative.

Oh man.

So he's the guy that wrote Sacred Pathways.

He basically, it's a person, it's kind of like a personality test of how you connect with God.

Sure.

It's awesome.

Really awesome.

Well, as we wrap this up, I want to just ask you real quick, Paul, what is a piece of advice that you would have for any dad that's listening to this podcast right now?

Whether it be something that's related to birth or parenting or we were talking about earlier, sanctification or just even your relationship with the Lord.

What advice do you have for these fellas that are listening?

What I would say is most of the solutions to our concerns about our role in birth or how things are gonna go with the birth, how our wife will do, all of these things that we inevitably think about at some point, most of them can be solved in the same way that men solve almost all their problems.

It starts with try to keep yourself physically strong.

It will help you feel emotionally strong and it will help you think well.

So maintaining strength.

What I would also say is try not to live in fear.

There's, especially in the home birth world, men feel fear.

Men feel like this is out of our control, you know, what's gonna happen.

A woman who feels loved and cared for and supported has so many more times a chance of having a peaceful and life-changingly happy birth.

She needs to feel that you love her and that you support her and that you care for her.

And if you can nail that, then you've got it.

So I think it starts to the caring for yourself, trying to do the head work and the prayer work that you need to in advance.

Keeping yourself physically strong is a good way to do that.

But remember, focus on the prize.

And the prize is your wife's joy and the baby.

For me, that's been the best thing that I can do personally.

That's good, man.

Yeah, I think that the advice that I would have is actually very practical because I haven't heard it spoken about a ton in all the episodes maybe that we've done.

I think this will be episode 43.

And so I feel like this might be useful.

The advice that I would have to any dad out there is to go out of your way to make your wife feel beautiful during pregnancy, during postpartum, Absolutely.

when she's feeling insecure.

Of course, if she lends herself, generally speaking, to feeling insecure, but do whatever you can to make your wife feel beautiful and show her that you love her and that you're thinking of her and that you're attracted to her and that your heart is with her during this time of transition and change.

Because that's gonna help her feel solid on a foundation, because as the husbands and the fathers, it is my conviction that we are the foundation of our family and even our wives stand on that foundation.

And so it's important, I think, for us to approach it from even that angle, that when our wife feels cherished and when our wives feel beautiful and when they feel loved, they feel secure.

I mean, for some reason, it just comes out of me.

Kayla will, she'll say over and over and over again to anybody else, like, Chris just keeps telling me how beautiful I am, and I don't always feel it.

It just comes out of my mouth.

Maybe I'm just a really affirming person.

But it's also because I think it's true.

Nope, I get that.

I do think that.

I think that she's really beautiful, and I like telling her that she's beautiful.

Partially.

My love language is words of affirmation, and so that's, of course, how I might naturally choose to dish it out.

But I never try to miss an opportunity to make sure that Kayla feels secure in her body even during this time of pregnancy and postpartum when things are just different.

And even now, like five babies later, she's not really postpartum anymore.

I mean, Indy is seven months old at this point, eight months old, and it's important for me to still make her feel like I really love the way you're put together.

And this is the way that I put it sometimes, is that that belly right there, that belly that I see, it is living proof that there were five babies that lived in that belly, and you brought all of our five babies into the world.

It is the most valuable thing that you could have provided for our family, other than your best self, of course.

But I'm just really thankful.

I'm just really thankful that she put her body through that five times so that we can have the family that we have.

And her tummy is living proof.

When I look at it, it's living proof that our babies are here and that they live in this.

There's an elegance to a mother.

There's a warmth and a softness that every man appreciates.

It pours out of the way they speak and it pours out of the way that they live too.

And the beauty is physical and the beauty is lived.

And there's nothing more wonderful.

I mean, at least in my experience, there's nothing more wonderful than watching my wife, who was a newlywed, who was a wife to me for so long, fill our home.

The other day, okay, so the other day, we had our van in the shop.

It had needed to have some work on it.

So we were using the car that I drive to work for a little bit.

And we had all the, and it's a small car, and we had all of the car seats in the back.

And so the back seat was full.

It was full as full.

And I told her, I looked at her and I said, you filled my back seat.

I said, thank you.

And you just, you can't lose sight of how wonderful it is to watch your wife become a mother.

There's nothing in the world like it.

And you feel it every day.

And that's the cool thing is like, this isn't something that you just, it's not like birth is this single moment.

It becomes a lifetime of experiences.

You know, you talk about changing chapters.

It's a whole book in itself and you get to read it.

It's awesome.

Right, oh man, absolutely.

Yeah, and it's funny.

And I'll just mention this real quick.

We have in our house, and guys, you can kind of take note of this.

In our house, we have a day.

It comes around once a year.

It's a holiday in our family.

It's called Bump Day.

And it was a randomly chosen day that is in March.

We don't have any babies born in March.

There's not a lot going on in March in our house.

And it's the third Friday in March every year.

It's Bump Day.

And it is the day to celebrate the fact that Kayla has brought four babies and now five.

Bump Day was invented after our fourth, but she has brought all those babies into our house.

And it's a day.

That's so cute.

It's kind of like Mother's Day V2, but it's specifically for celebrating the fact that she put her body through that, because it's so tough for her.

And that's so great.

It's really funny.

But we enjoy it.

I got her an espresso machine the first bump day, because I never got her, you know, I didn't know the term push present.

Yeah.

That's the thing.

I didn't know that was a thing until someone said it after she gave birth to True.

And so I gave her a big one present just to cover the all four.

So I got her an espresso machine.

Yeah, there you go.

But it was slightly selfish, I will say.

We have good coffee at our house.

Y'all come over.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, so, but anyway.

Paul, I appreciate it, man.

This is really fun.

And I really appreciate your wisdom.

You got a lot of really profound, really good things to say that'll have these guys thinking.

And so really appreciate you, man.

And we'll have to have you back on for another one.

I can't wait.

I'm looking forward to it.

Thank you so much.

Thanks again for joining us today.

You can reach me at Surrendered Birth Services on Instagram or email me at contact at surrenderedbirthservices.com.

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