069 - How Five C-Sections Revealed the Sovereignty of God (with Emily Ransom) [Multiple C-Sections, OBGYN Issues, & Growing in Faith]

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SHOW NOTES:

When you’re planning a natural, unmedicated birth at a birth center, and then at the last minute you end up having a C-Section for a breech positioned baby, you don’t realize the lasting impact it can have on you and your future pregnancies for years to come. Emily, mother of five, shares her stories today, and has many encouraging words for moms out there who have either had a C-Section, or will be having a C-Section, and how God is sovereign over it all. 

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TRANSCRIPT:

A lot of people don't realize that the risks, like, for each cesarean increase, the more you have, like, statistically.

Everyone had warned me about the risks of VBAC, but nobody talked about the risks of a repeat cesarean.

I think that that birth was, in a way, harder to get over than my first, because I felt like after having one cesarean, I definitely wanted a VBAC, and there was, like, hope that I could just have the rest of my kids naturally.

And I, like I said, I always wanted a big family.

I knew I wanted, like, at least three or four.

But after having two cesareans, I was so bummed because I was like, this is going to limit how many kids I can have.

And again, nobody was talking about VBACs after two cesareans then, but I just realized after that whole thing that the doctors in the OB office, they might say they're pro VBAC, but they're not.

They're pro whatever's going to be the safest and the most convenient for them and the most predictable.

I shouldn't say the safest, but the most predictable.

And that outcome is more predictable with the cesarean.

Hi, I'm Kayla Heater, follower of Jesus, wife and mother of five children, Christian childbirth educator in Dula, and your host of the Surrendered Birth Stories podcast, where we share God-centered birth stories, evidence-based birth education, and our pursuit of surrendering our birth plans to God.

Let's get started.

Hey, everyone, I hope your week is off to a great start.

It has been a big weekend here for our family.

Our daughter, our only daughter, did her very first Nutcracker performance, and there's actually three performances, but she saw her friend in it last year.

She was so excited.

She said, I really want to be in it next year.

And so for the last five months, she has been working toward this, and we are proud of her.

She's really, really pumped to be in it.

So it's just been rehearsal every single night, the week leading up, dress rehearsal the night before, two shows on Saturday, one show on Sunday.

It was honestly a lot more involved than I realized when we got involved.

But it was kind of too late at that point, and she's really, really happy and just very proud and excited to be a part of it.

So that's the first time we've ever done anything like that.

She's our oldest.

She's almost 11.

And so we've not really gotten into any kind of extracurricular type things much.

So it was definitely a big change up for our family.

But I think we're all ready to kind of breathe after Christmas and just kind of enjoy that downtime again.

All right.

Review time.

So I've actually, I saw this review a couple months back and I wanted to save it for today for a very specific reason.

So this review is from Sarah.

I'm pregnant with my fifth daughter, surprise, and scheduled for a fifth c-section this February.

At the beginning of this pregnancy, I was diagnosed with a moderate to large hematoma and given a 50% chance of the pregnancy surviving beyond 12 weeks.

I was in a dark place of dealing with the surprise of being pregnant again when I felt so complete and satisfied with my already big family, as well as the complications and health concerns my doctors were discussing with me.

This podcast has helped me to surrender my fearful thoughts and trust the Lord to carry me through this fifth c-section, no matter the outcome.

God has healed my hematoma in my 20th week, and I know He has big plans for this baby girl's life.

Thank you for the encouragement and knowledge I have gained in listening to this podcast.

I only wish I'd found it sooner, so I would have had the courage and education to stand up for myself more after my first or second c-sections.

Well, Sarah, first of all, thank you so much for leaving that review.

And it means so much to me that it's been so encouraging for you.

And I just want to tell you, you're not alone.

And on our story today, we have another woman who has had five c-sections.

So I really hope that you can relate in some way and be encouraged in some way and know that she's doing great, and you're about to hear her story.

That's why reviews are so important to you guys.

It really helps other people hear these stories and find this show and be able to be encouraged and gain that education as they prepare for other pregnancies.

So please, if you haven't left a review ever, if you've never left a review for this show before, please go ahead.

Just take the one minute that it takes to scroll down and click write a review, and I would appreciate every bit of any word that you have to say about this show.

All right.

Let's get in to this week's episode.

When you're planning a natural unmedicated birth at a birth center, and then at the last minute you end up having a C-section for a breach position baby, you don't realize the lasting impact it can have on you and your future pregnancies for years to come.

Emily, mother of five, shares her stories today, and has many encouraging words for moms out there who have either had a C-section or will be having a C-section and how God is sovereign over it all.

Well, welcome to another episode of Surrendered Birth Stories.

I am your host, Kayla Heater, and I have Emily with me today.

Emily, please take a second just to introduce yourself.

Tell us about you and your life and your family, your day to day.

Give us an idea of who we are talking to today.

Hi, Kayla.

Thanks for having me.

This is so exciting.

I was just really honored that you asked me to do this.

And I'm Emily.

I am married to my high school sweetheart, Dossie.

We've been together.

We're coming up on 11 years of marriage, but we dated for five, so we've been together half my life.

We have five kids.

We did miscarry once, so I feel like I am doing a disservice if I don't mention.

And we also have a baby in heaven, but we have five that are with us here, Earthside.

I'm a stay-at-home mom.

I homeschool.

Dossie is in the fuel industry, and before that, he was a police officer.

So his schedule has always been really sporadic.

But yeah, just like church life, homeschool life.

I also run a homeopathy business and a young living business.

So there's a little bit of work from home stuff that I do on the side, but that's essentially our day to day.

We are outside a lot.

We do a hiking group on Mondays.

I accidentally kind of started a co-op.

I'm just like, of course, I committed to this, but it's fine because we needed to be outside more.

And I was like, well, whoever wants to come join us can come.

And it just kind of went from there.

So I don't know.

That's my quick intro.

My kids are eight and under.

So I have five, eight and under.

That's just to add a little bit more context.

So the last eight years have been very, very busy.

Yes.

And I don't think I even realized how crazy those small age gaps were until I looked at other people with large families.

And I'm like, oh, your oldest is 15 and you have five.

And my oldest is eight.

So I've literally been pregnant or nursing for nine years with a couple short breaks.

It is a wild ride, but it's also really, really, really fun.

Yes.

Yes.

It's a party all the time.

Sometimes that party is a little bit crazy and we have to reign it in.

But it's like literally just chaos and it's fun.

And we always wanted a big family.

Well, now you definitely have one.

We didn't always want a big family.

It just sort of came upon us.

I didn't know that.

I thought that you guys always just set out to have lots of babies.

And I feel like it's so natural for you guys.

Nope.

We were definitely on the like two to three, maybe.

We'll see.

Oh, we have a boy and a girl.

Okay.

I guess we'll be done.

And okay.

Whoops.

Okay.

One more boy.

Okay.

And it just kind of spiraled from there.

The Lord definitely directed and changed our paths from what we initially had in our minds.

Yes.

Well, that's what I'm glad about it.

That's funny because, yeah, we had a boy and a girl first also or girl boy.

And then three was a surprise.

And I knew that I wasn't done at two, but Dawsey was like very much happy with the girl and boy that we had.

He was like, this is our perfect family.

And I was like, I don't think we're done, but maybe a break.

And there was not a break.

And then, yeah, then after our third, we miscarried.

So I definitely wanted a fourth.

And then five was kind of a surprise.

But it's like, again, we always wanted a big family.

And I mean, God, God plans every single one, you know, like they're none of them were a surprise to him.

It just might not have been like exactly the way that we timed it out or whatever, but super thankful.

It's definitely cool to like watch it unfold and to like have watched you guys have your babies at almost all the same time.

So y'all started a little bit ahead of us, but.

Yeah, I think we started a couple of years before you, and then our youngest is like 13, 14 months now.

So, yeah.

OK, well, let's let's get into your stories then.

So take us back, take us back to probably like nine years ago.

Yeah.

What what was that like getting pregnant for the first time?

Yeah.

So we Kayla and I used to go to church together for anybody who is listening.

So we were at Daystar in Greensboro then.

And I know it's not called that anymore.

But to me, it will always be that we all we all still say Daystar.

OK, that's good to know.

Yeah.

So we we'd been married like two years and we decided maybe less a little bit less than two years.

But we decided like now is the time to start trying.

It did take us a couple months, but it wasn't, you know, anything wild.

And then like shortly after becoming pregnant, I remember this, and this is why I said that we were at Daystar with you, because nobody knew that we were pregnant yet.

But you like you somehow caught an inkling of something while we were at church one morning, and it was small group sign up.

And you like grab my hand and you're like, Emily, you're taking this small group, this birthing class.

And I'm just like, OK.

And up to that point, the reason I share that is because I had never even like given a single thought to what I put in my body, how birth was going to look, just knew I wanted kids, knew I wanted to be pregnant, but I didn't really have any idea or concept of like all the things that go into that, how to prepare your body for baby for pregnancy.

Yeah.

So that was like that class was just huge.

And so you're you're a huge part of that because you invited me.

That was like with the Dula group that you were with at that time.

And that class just changed a whole lot for me because it was my first look into kind of the natural world, the crunchy world, which was which is hilarious to say, because all the stuff I do now is like I'm just on this whole other place in my journey as a mom and like with all natural lifestyle type things.

But at that point, I again, I had never thought about what I put in my body.

She had us like journal about different foods.

And I was like, oh, maybe added ingredients.

Maybe these aren't that great.

Then it's literally part of like my story of how I found homeopathy because the person giving the class said, you know, give your baby Tylenol, they'll be fine.

And I'm like, why would Tylenol not be fine?

And just these things that I had never thought of that were seeds planted in my head.

And one of those was, I just always assumed I'd have like a traditional hospital birth with an epidural.

Like, I guess that's just what I don't know.

That's just what you do.

And then throughout that class, I started to think, well, maybe I don't want the epidural.

Maybe I want to do this naturally.

And then, then I felt like it was really a calling and that the Lord really put me there in that class.

And then that had space for a reason.

Like, I really felt called to a natural birth.

And nobody in my circle was talking about birth centers or home births or like any of that.

And so we were, Dawsey had just gotten his job as a police officer in Rock Hill during this pregnancy.

So pregnant for the first time, he's living in Columbia, South Carolina.

I'm living in Greensboro.

We're like seeing each other sometimes on weekends, and going to this class when we can.

Like I was there, but he would come in when he could.

And then I started, so I knew that we were going to have to transfer like my pregnancy care from Greensboro to Charlotte where I was going to have the baby because we'd be living in Rock Hill by the time Callie was born.

So what I did was I found a birth center in Charlotte and I started to do my appointments there.

And it was just amazing, like the care from the midwives.

It was so different from anything I'd had at the OB offices before.

And just like really excited and looking forward to this amazing birth with like the tub and like, of course, the birth center is just gorgeous.

And, you know, they have the robozo scarf things.

They have like all these cool pain management tools.

And I was just really, really excited to deliver there.

And again, just put, I felt like the Lord put that on my heart for a reason, because there was no part of me that would have ever sought out that type of birth prior to becoming pregnant.

And even everybody in my close circle was like, ah, what are you doing?

You're going to Charlotte to do what?

You're gonna, like, is there a hospital nearby?

And it actually was right around the corner from a hospital, but it's just really funny to think about how that unfolded.

And so we moved when I was 36 weeks pregnant.

So still going to the birth center for all of my appointments, seeing the midwives.

So of course, it's all very non-invasive.

Like, they didn't do cervical checks, you know, very few ultrasounds, that type of thing.

And I was, like, 39 weeks and five days and went in for an appointment.

And the midwife is, you know, feeling my tummy, and she's like, this feels wobbly up here.

This feels like a head.

And I was like, okay, you know, what does that mean?

And she's like, do you mind if I do a cervical check?

Because I think that she might be breech.

And so I said, sure.

And she confirmed that there were feet there.

And, you know, she wanted me to go in for an ultrasound at the OB that was nearby, just to, like, confirm the breech position.

But so we did that.

She was breech.

And again, I'm, like, two days away from my due date.

And so they're like, well, there's a chance that she could turn.

But, you know, the birth center was not going to take me as a breech birth.

They didn't do that.

They had really strict guidelines about what they could do.

And so I would be looking at a hospital birth, and the doctor that I met with at the OB office, someone I've never seen before, right?

Because I went from my OB in Greensboro to my birth center midwives to now at almost 40 weeks pregnant, I'm seeing this, like, stranger OB in Charlotte.

And he was, like, really old school, and he's just, like, listen, you can do everything you can to get baby to flip over, but if she doesn't, I don't recommend you trying for a natural labor, just this being your first birth.

Like, if you were my daughter, I would not want you to risk that, basically, because I didn't have the advantage of, like, her head pushing on my cervix the whole time.

So he's, like, I think that your best option, if she doesn't turn, because she might flip over, but if she doesn't, I think your best option, your safest option, is a C-section.

When she was born, it was revealed that she actually had been breached the whole time.

Like, they could tell by how her hips were and stuff.

And so at this point, like, my whole pregnancy had been great.

I loved being pregnant.

I, like, I worked the whole time.

I was a teacher then.

I just really enjoyed the whole thing.

But then all of a sudden, it was, like, chaotic.

And so we did all these things to try to get her to flip over.

But so we went in to the hospital with this stranger OB guy at 40 weeks on the dot and tried to do the version where they try to turn baby from the from the outside.

That was terrible.

I don't recommend not at 40 weeks.

I think maybe it's not terrible if you're, like, not as pregnant.

But she was fully baked.

And she did not flip over.

And they had called me the day before and said, well, since you'll be at the hospital, do you want to just schedule a C-section?

And, you know, if you have the version and she doesn't turn, then since you're there and you're 40 weeks, we could just go ahead and do the cesarean.

And I'm like, sure, I guess.

You know, I just didn't know what to say.

It was like, all of a sudden, this beautiful pregnancy was, like, completely out of my control, and all birth is out of our control.

But it just felt like all these things that I had not prepared myself for, I was, like, fully prepared with my birth pain management techniques and my stages of labor.

And I, like, was so ready and excited for that.

I knew I wanted to give birth in the water.

And then all of a sudden, it was just like, oh, you want to schedule this?

You want to do a C-section?

You want to have an ultrasound?

You want to do this?

Like, this version thing that you've never heard of.

It was just wild.

So, yeah, she didn't turn.

They started prepping me for surgery.

That whole, like, time frame of that morning is like, I felt like it was an out-of-body experience.

I felt like it was happening to someone else.

I'm going to cry because I don't talk about it a lot.

And it was just like, I was hovering above the OR and like, there was me.

Sorry.

I didn't expect to cry.

It was just so different from everything that I wanted.

And nobody was talking about birth trauma then.

So, like, it took me years to process all of that.

And she was healthy and beautiful and perfect.

And I was so thankful.

But the whole, like, recovery was really hard.

It was nothing that I had expected.

And just felt, like, really incapacitated.

Like, nursing was hard.

I couldn't do anything for myself.

So that was a lot.

And then it was like all these people around me started having babies, too, and they were all getting, like, their perfect births.

And I was just like, gosh, this, like, major thing just happened to me, and I can't process it.

And I am so deeply grateful that she's here.

And because when you have a C-section, everybody's like, oh, well, you're fine, and the baby's fine.

And like, that's what matters, right?

That's what matters.

And of course, that's the most important thing, is that we're both healthy and safe.

But I think I feel differently about my cesareans than a lot of people do.

A lot of people are, like, okay with theirs because it was an emergency or they're, they elected to have one.

But it was, like I said, it was so different from what I had planned.

And this, like, birth that I really felt called to, I felt like I had been robbed of this, like, this birth experience.

And not just because this is my ideal experience, but because that's really how I believe that babies are meant to come into the world.

I really believe that our natural body's processes are not meant to be interrupted or suppressed.

And a C-section is like the exact opposite of all that.

It's all the drugs and, I mean, it's surgery.

You're awake during surgery.

Nobody could have prepared me, but I just was so unprepared for how that was going to feel.

I felt a lot.

I don't know.

It wasn't like I was just in this drug-induced haze.

It was like I was extremely aware of a lot that was happening.

And there was a lot of just actual pain and pressure that was happening.

So, I mean, just all these things that I was reflecting on and trying to cope with.

And I just kept on talking and talking about it to anyone who would listen or not talking about it because I didn't want to like overshadow their birth experience with my story because I didn't have a good birth.

And like, there were just all these things.

And I was listening to a podcast.

This is like when I first found podcasts.

This like first became a thing.

But I was listening to this woman who had lost a child.

And she, I'll just never forget this.

She said, I can be angry and shake my tiny dust fist at God and say, why did you let this happen?

Why did you let this happen?

And of course, I didn't lose a child in that birth, but I still felt that like, God, how could you have let this happen when you called me to this natural birth?

And she said, I can shake my tiny dust fist at him and ask why, but he doesn't always answer with why.

But he does always answer with who.

And I just had so much peace when I heard that.

That was like bomb to my soul, and that was where my healing started.

Um, with that birth, with an entire birth story, because God had been with me the entire time.

He had never abandoned me.

Um, he, he was sovereign over every minute of it.

And even though I didn't think that it was best or, like, still really don't.

And I'll, I'll go into like all of my births.

It's, I don't believe that a C-section is the best way for a baby to come into the world.

But nothing passes through his sovereign hand without him knowing.

Like, he's ultimately, he's there with us the entire time, no matter how our births look.

Sorry, I'm just getting really worked up now.

That's okay.

It is, I mean, to me, the most emotional thing we can talk about.

It is.

Um, and that was part of my healing, too, is that realizing that no matter how your birth looked, it's deeply important.

It's like, it was okay for me to grieve that experience, and I didn't have to just, like, feel like I was being ungrateful or feel like I should be getting over it faster.

Like, birth is one of the most profound experiences of a woman's life.

That's not to say it's the ultimate experience, but we'll, we never forget our births.

We never forget the days that our babies came into the world, the people that were around us, like, those little details we remember forever.

Do you feel like the experience that you had impacted your postpartum or your breastfeeding or anything like that?

I definitely do.

At the time, I didn't know it.

I didn't think I was depressed, but I just looked back on pictures and I totally was.

And I was, there was, there was multiple factors.

Like, I had Pitocin right after she was born, which I didn't know that they gave me.

They gave me that without my consent.

And so it was like hard, cramping pain all day after the surgery.

They put me on this like liquid diet for the first 24 hours, which never should have been a thing.

They were like, I was, I was very much treated like a surgery patient and not as a mom, like in hindsight.

Then I didn't really realize that until I had other kids.

But, you know, for a breastfeeding mom, it's like absurd that I couldn't do anything but drink water for 24 hours after she was born.

She was passed around like a football because she was the first grandchild.

So it was like all these hunger cues that I was kind of missing.

So I think all of those things led to like a hard emotional beginning for me and a hard start to our nursing journey.

We did eventually get it.

We saw a lactation consultant when she was about two weeks old.

I wish I hadn't waited that long, but she was born August 18th.

So it was like kind of around Labor Day when we were realizing nursing is not going well.

I'm not supposed to be sobbing through every feeding.

Like I always joke that the burp cloths in the beginning are not for the baby, they're for the mom because all the like postpartum emotions, you just need that like that nearby cloth to fill your nose or cry into it or whatever you're going to do.

Clearly, water works.

I should have a burp cloth nearby.

But yeah, so nursing was hard.

We did get through it, and that was like, I really clogged to that because I'm like, well, I can't, I didn't birth my baby the way I wanted, but I am going to breastfeed this baby and like just believe that that's, you know, there's some healing in that to be able to feed her the way that I had planned to.

And then I went back to work when she was 10 weeks old.

I was, like I said, I was a teacher then.

And my commute from where we were living to where I was working and daycare, all of that was like an hour and a half that I would spend in the car.

So that was really hard.

And just again, some things that I had never thought about before or considered that now I'm so different in my stance on this.

But I just began to understand over that year that babies and moms really should not be separated for the first year of life.

It's so sacred, especially when you're on that breastfeeding journey.

Like I was trying to pump.

I was putting so much pressure on myself to work and be a mom and pump and figure all this out as a first-time mom.

And like I said, Dawsey had started a new job.

He was a police officer.

So his schedule was wild.

I mean, it was just, I look back on that time in my life and I'm like, wow, there was a dark cloud over me that I didn't even realize was there until I was out.

And that's kind of a separate story.

But basically, I felt called to become a stay at home mom after my second was born.

It was like the Lord showed me that there was a cloud over me and showed me that I was just sad.

Like I was missing my babies.

I was not supposed to be pumping in.

And I'm not a good pumper.

I don't pump a lot.

So it was like that was very stressful and the depressing in and of itself because I was just was always like, I can't make enough, can't make enough.

And I started really praying about like him providing away for me to stay home when Bubba was about six months old.

And then I did.

And then we got pregnant with Cameron.

So, I mean, it's just this kind of whole journey of the Lord showing me like, here's another little step.

Here's another little piece into like the next thing that I'm calling you to.

And so I do think it affected my postpartum and just that whole first year.

And I, like I said, when I heard that podcast episode about like God answering with who he is, he always he's always faithful to to remind us of who's holding us, who planned our life for us, who planned our births, who planned our children that we would have.

And just keeping that at the forefront has been a huge part of of my journey as a mom.

As with with births, with with each kid that we've had, just like reminding myself that he's sovereign, he's faithful and and he's he's just so good.

He he shows up again and again.

He keeps reminding us, even when when I'm doubtful, he you know, he just keeps on showing up and showing me his his goodness and that he does care about the details.

It took me a long time to talk about my my births in any kind of like a public space, like social media or whatever, because I just felt like it was too nuanced and nobody was going to understand.

But the Lord has has been really kind to show me that there's room for all different stories.

Like every birth is important, no matter how your kid came into the world, you still birthed your baby, and you're not overshadowing anybody's story, you're taking up too much space by telling yours.

Like there's room for all of us to share, and of course, like room always for him to get the glory.

And ultimately, that's what it's about.

And that's why I just love your podcast and your mission, because it's just about that surrender and that's the perfect way to describe birth, because whatever, however your baby comes into the world, it requires complete surrender.

And you're just trusting in the one who holds you and who knits life together.

So that's baby number one.

I could just keep listening to you talk about this all day.

Well, it could take me all day, Kayla.

I have five kids.

Well, I get that for sure.

Well, then take us to baby number two.

Take us to how he came about and how were you going about planning birth the second time, knowing that you had a cesarean the first time?

Yeah.

So our story of becoming pregnant with Bubba is hilarious.

Sorry, we call him Bubba because his name is Dossie.

He's the fourth.

He's Dossie the fourth, but we call him Bubba.

And then it just stuck because Callie was little, little, and that's what she could say.

Callie's my oldest.

I don't know if I have said like kids' names, but anyway, when Callie was like 15 months old, we just were like, wow, parenthood is great.

Like Callie was an easy baby.

Just, she just was an angel.

She was amazing.

And even though I feel like I was in this kind of dark cloud, like we don't know what we have when we have our first baby.

We don't know if they're an easy or a hard baby because they're our first.

And then we were like, wow, we're such great parents.

Let's do it again.

Like we, she needs a sibling.

She's 15 months old.

And so we tried and got pregnant right away that time.

And so he was born when she was 23 months old.

And again, hilarious, because at 23 months, I just thought that she was basically ready to get her driver's license.

I just thought she was so advanced.

And I look back at pictures, I'm like, gosh, she was a baby.

But yeah, I was planning a VBAC with him.

I had been told all along, even in the hospital, having just had Callie, I was told, we know this wasn't your birth plan, but you're a great candidate for a VBAC.

Everyone said it to me constantly, you're a great candidate for a VBAC.

Because I never labored, I never pushed, I never...

All the things that I was sad about never experiencing, they were saying like, the only reason for your cesarean was that she was breech.

So that makes you a great candidate for a VBAC because there is no reason health-wise or anything else that you should have to have cesareans.

So planning this VBAC, another great pregnancy.

I just, I looked the best when I was pregnant with Bubba.

I don't know, I was probably not feeding myself enough, but I was, I look back at pictures and I'm like, hmm, okay, we had maternity pictures taken then.

But yeah, great pregnancy.

And I'm trying to think how pregnant I was.

I think I was like 37 weeks, and it's like, okay, things are becoming chaotic again.

They said that I was measuring small.

And I remember thinking, well, I was measuring fine last week and he didn't shrink.

So how this week am I measuring small?

And measurements are subjective.

I mean, one person can come in, and then the next person who measures, you can say something totally different.

But they were starting to kind of talk about the placenta may be aging, and he may be not getting enough nutrients.

They were starting to talk about inner uterine growth restriction, which I don't think that makes sense because I'm pretty sure that's for an overdue baby, and I was like 37 weeks.

But anyway, they were just using all these kind of scary terms, and they said that he was not growing as he should, and so I'd have another C-section.

They just told me this, and I started sobbing because all this time, I mean, you have to really go in like a lion when you're preparing for a VBAC.

And so all this time, I'm like working, working, working on my mindset to do this and to labor and really make this thing happen.

Then they just announced to me that it's going to be a C-section, and I'm like, what?

And so then Dawsey came to a few appointments with me, you know, trying to figure out what's really going on.

And I was, I had prodromal labor with him for forever.

So there was also like this trick.

It felt like my body was playing tricks on me because I would have contractions steadily.

I lost my mucus plug.

I had like some, some pink spotting and things like that.

Like it just seemed like everything was, was a go for this VBAC.

And yet they were telling me, well, something might be wrong, but I knew in my, in my spirit that he, he was okay.

But I still complied with the non-stress tests and everything that they wanted to do.

He looked beautiful on all the tests.

And again, it's just part of, it's part of my journey because now I'm a much different type of mom.

I feel like I've found like my mama bear voice and I never would have put up with any of that because I just, you know, if I'm fine and baby's fine, can we wait?

Why do we have to do all this?

But at the time, I was just worried and you're, you know, you're anxious at the end of pregnancy.

You just want everything to be okay.

You want your baby to be okay.

The doctors are in some ways liable for what happens to you.

So they're also trying to cover their tracks.

And I think that's, I'm just very like jaded about OB care because I've just seen how they really don't have all the information.

They don't have the full picture.

Birth is very mysterious and it's hidden.

And like what's going on in the womb is unknown.

So they're just trying to, they're trying to do the best with the information they have to make sure that you and baby are healthy.

But so I went to an appointment with Dawsey and he was like kind of strong-arming the doctors.

Like, why are you telling her that he's not growing?

We don't understand how this is possible.

And I'll just never forget this because it was so manipulative.

They said, well, you know, we can't really be sure.

But if she goes into labor by 39 weeks, you know, then you'll have your V back and we'll let you try.

Let me.

Like, okay.

Anyway.

The language.

Yeah, I know.

I just love it.

And if you don't go into labor by 39 weeks, then it's just going to be God's plan for you to have another cesarean.

They said that to me, that it was going to be God's plan.

And just looking back, I just see how manipulative that was.

They knew that I was a believer, and they...

I mean, I think that the OB who said that to me is a Christian, but just was young and used that to kind of say, we're going to put a timer on you, and if you don't go into labor by this timer, then the safest option for us to like CYA is going to be another cesarean.

Nobody told me about the risks of a repeat cesarean, so I did not go into labor by 39 weeks.

I was so bummed.

We went to the hospital for our scheduled C-section.

He was the only one that was scheduled, by the way, which is funny.

I've never had an emergency cesarean, but his was the only one that was actually on the calendar.

But I didn't know about the risks.

Right before surgery, the doctor who was going to do the cesarean said, and we could tear into your bladder and you could be on a colostomy bag for a little while or maybe forever.

We just don't know because of the scar tissue.

So you can go ahead and sign this consent form.

And I'm horrified.

I mean, just wild.

And I laugh at that ironically because it really was not funny at all.

I've gotten some bad information from OBs.

And so that's just led to me having this, I hate to say it, but a jaded critical perspective.

Well, they come from our experiences.

And if that's been your experience, then like, what else would you think of them?

Well, and they are surgeons.

So surgeons will elect to do surgery if they can, because it's easy for them.

It's convenient.

They're good at it.

It's-

That's what they were trained in.

Yes.

And the field they went into.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was already so like bummed that this was happening.

And now I was also even more scared.

And a lot of people don't realize that the risks like for each cesarean increase the more you have, like statistically, everyone had warned me about the risks of VBAC, but nobody talked about the risks of a repeat cesarean.

But he was born and he was healthy and beautiful.

And I think that that birth was in a way harder to get over than my first, because I felt like after having one cesarean, I definitely wanted a VBAC.

And there was like hope that I could just have the rest of my kids naturally.

And I, like I said, I always wanted a big family.

I knew I wanted like at least three or four.

But after having two cesareans, I was so bummed because I was like, this is going to limit how many kids I can have.

And again, nobody was talking about VBACs after two cesareans then.

But I just realized after that whole thing that the doctors in the OB office, they might say they're pro VBAC, but they're not.

They're pro whatever is going to be the safest and the most convenient for them and the most predictable.

I shouldn't say the safest, but the most predictable.

And that outcome is more predictable with a cesarean.

And so after two, it really gets difficult.

Like the whole time, I thought that I was being supported by my providers to have this VBAC experience.

But then I realized at the end, with all this kind of talk about his growth and things like that, I realized that they were not pro anything that I wanted.

They were just pro like predictability and liability.

And he was small.

He was 6'2.

He was the smallest out of all my babies.

Not abnormally small.

That's still on the range of normal.

But to be born at 39 weeks, and I say evicted because he was just born too early.

He was little.

He spent like the first 6 weeks of his life asleep.

He ate a lot, but he was really, really sleepy.

And so one of the decisions that I made after that was like, I'm never going to let them tell me again that I have an expiration date of 39 weeks.

Like, my babies are going to come when they come.

Even if I have to have cesareans in the future, I'm not letting them evict them early because it was just like kind of pitiful to see how little he was.

We had to do all these extra tests and things with his like blood sugar.

But anyway, I do think that that one was in a way harder for me to get over because I felt like my dreams of ever having a VBAC or having home births, like that was just over.

And with Callie, I wanted a birth center birth.

And then I was pretty, pretty set on the rest of them being home births after that.

And with Bubba, he was supposed to be a hospital VBAC.

And then I wanted home births from that point on.

And it's just with all of my births, I just go back and forth with like, did I do the right thing?

Did I make the right decision?

Did I?

And I think that's why I've beat myself up so much about his, because I just wish that I wouldn't have caved.

I wish that I never would have listened to the things that they were scaring me with.

But like I said, you're just, you're anxious here at the end of your pregnancy.

You don't know what's going on either.

And my intuition was telling me that everything was fine, but I was also hearing this scary language from the OBs.

And I just felt like I was doing the best thing.

And I kind of already talked about his postpartum.

Like I was again, under a black cloud a little bit, pumping at work.

I also took 10 weeks off with him, which was good.

But yeah, just starting to believe that babies and moms should not be separated that first year.

And like the Lord really showing me, I have something different for you.

And I had always just thought, I'll teach, my kids will be in daycare.

You know, this is the life that I'm called to.

And the Lord just started to show me, now I have a next calling for you.

It's not that I wasn't called the teaching.

It's just, here's the next calling.

Just to clarify.

So then did you end up coming home at, you said, I feel like you said around six months when Bubba was six months.

When he was six months old, I started praying about it.

And so when he was right about to turn one, it's when the school year ended, and then that was my last year.

Okay.

So you made the decision not to go back.

Yes.

So that whole year of him being a baby, I was still doing the pumping at work thing and now had two kids in daycare.

But after that school year, I didn't go back and he was, yeah, he was not quite one.

So I decided to be a stay at home mom.

And like four months after that, we got pregnant with Cameron.

And the timing of that is just hilarious because literally Callie and Bubba are 23 months apart.

Bubba and Cameron are 23 months apart.

It's like, okay, God, funny.

And we got pregnant with her at a real low in our marriage and in life in general.

And she's also a COVID baby.

So during her pregnancy, ironically, I was not really seeing the OB that often because people weren't going into the office unless they had a high risk pregnancy or an emergent situation.

So because I was low risk, I think I had like my anatomy scan, and then I don't think I saw anybody, maybe the rest of the pregnancy, like from 18-ish, 20-ish weeks, I don't think I saw anybody until I had her.

And so during that time, I was still praying about, okay, be back or should I just do the repeats this area?

And like, what's going to be emotionally easier?

What's safest?

Should I search for a provider who would do the VBAC after two?

They did tell me at my 12-week appointment with her, we don't do VBACs after two cesareans.

We started to see too many dead babies.

You'll have another C-section.

They literally said that to me in the appointment.

I mean, just...

Anytime someone says dead baby, I'm like, bye.

That was the last conversation I'm ever gonna have with you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I won't see him again.

Yeah.

And I don't want this to turn into like a, oh, here's Emily bashing every OB she's ever seen podcast.

But all these details, like I said, they all are pieces of my journey that I'm on and have led me to where I am now, just my opinions about a lot of things and my stances.

So they told me at that practice, it will be another Caesarian.

And I, all along, just feeling like these decisions were made for me, like that's another big part of my story is just whatever birth you have, I desire for people to feel like they had autonomy and they had, not that we're in control because again, it's all about surrender and it's the Lord's, the Lord is the one that's holding us.

But our voice is still important and we still get like agency in our story.

We don't just, we're not just like victims that are active upon in birth.

And there's unfortunately just way too much of that, that goes on.

So yeah, all through Cameron's pregnancy, I was praying about VBAC or Caesarean.

And a VBAC would have required me to find a provider who would do that.

And there were like some laws, I think, that scared me about it, like as far as like South Carolina law, because I had considered a VBAC at home with her.

But again, this was COVID.

So a lot of things were really weird.

And in the end, I just decided that what was going to bring me the most peace was to do another cesarean.

And I said, you know, I'm never going in that soon again.

And then at 39 weeks, my water broke like big gush.

So I went to the hospital.

It was like a little bit of that drama that we had missed out on the first two times.

We had drama, but it wasn't like the urine labor drama.

And so that was kind of exciting, like, oh, I have to pack a bag.

You know, I have to call somebody to like come and be with the kids.

We hadn't had to do that with the other two.

So it was like a little fun.

And then I got to the hospital, and they're like, well, do you want to try for a VVAC?

And I was like, what?

This whole time, y'all have told me that I couldn't.

And now we haven't talked about birthing techniques in like four years at this point.

So, I mean, I'm in labor, like active labor.

I actually believe that I was in transition when by the time I was through triage and everything with her, and I was just like, no, I don't think I want to.

And so then I've regretted that.

Like, did I make the right decision to just do the Caesarean instead of trying for a VBEC at that point?

But I felt that I was unprepared for a VBEC, and that scenario was just not anything that I had predicted either.

And yeah, so with Boston and Hazel, number four and number five, what I did was, again, I don't want this to be like a bashing and OB thing, but I was so fed up with all the bad information that I had gotten that I just decided, you know, I'll go in for like my ultrasounds, but I'm gonna seek pregnancy prenatal care with a midwife and just do that with like a home birth midwife.

It'll be non-invasive.

It'll just be better care, honestly.

I got a lot more like personalized care.

They actually talked to me about nutrition.

They actually talked to me about what was in my urine samples and like things to watch out for and how to prevent GBS, a positive result, and like just all these things that the OBs never talked to me about.

And so I sought that out with number four and five and did my prenatal care and postpartum care with a home birth midwife.

But I still went in and had a cesarean birth.

And I just waited until I was in labor with Boston and Hazel and then went to the hospital.

And I was on record as a patient there because I'd had like my ultrasounds at early on.

And then again, for an anatomy scan.

But people always ask me like, oh, the OBs just let you do that.

They didn't want you to schedule it.

And I'm like, they don't let me do anything anymore.

Like they're, they're going to see me when they see me.

And with Cameron, nobody called me for four or five months because it was COVID.

So nobody checks on you.

Like if you're not, if you're not taking charge of your health in general, your birth, your, you know, your plan, if you're not having a voice in that, then the decision is going to kind of be made for you because they're not checking in going, hey, are we still on track with your birth plan?

You know, they're, they're just, they're busy at first of all.

They see hundreds and hundreds of patients and they stay awake for like three days straight.

And there is just a whole different world than like the home birth world.

And so you are in a way a number.

And yeah, I just felt like the best thing for me to do was to have the cesareans because I wasn't comfortable having babies at home after that many C-sections, but that I could still have some agency and autonomy by doing my prenatal care with the provider that I was more comfortable with, which was the home birth midwife.

So you waited with your fourth and fifth babies until you were in labor, and that was the plan from the beginning.

We'll wait till we're in labor, and then we'll go in for the cesarean.

Did you then also have your postpartum care with your home birth midwives?

So this is just funny, because my midwife this time around was joking with me about my six-week appointment, and I said, oh yeah, I canceled that.

I know that doesn't surprise you.

And she was like, no, it doesn't surprise me that you canceled that, because there's just no reason for me to go to the OB at six weeks for them to ask me what kind of birth control I'd like to be on, and to tell me that I can have sex now.

It's so impersonal, and what I got with my postpartum care from the midwife was like, she would come to my house every couple of days.

She did multiple weight checks with the babies.

She just checked on like, okay, how are you doing emotionally?

We would talk for 45 minutes, and it was just so opposite of any six-week appointment or otherwise that I had had with the OBs.

And it's also just, women need a lot more care than that.

Like this six-week window where it's a crucial time, you're learning to feed your baby, you're recovering from birth, and then we don't see women for six weeks.

But what I got with the Home Birth Midwives was the multiple checks and kind of that constant support.

Instead of, hey, we'll see you six weeks from now, and hopefully you are doing fine.

It was just so much more supportive and I desire for every woman to experience that.

It was incredible.

So there's been redeeming pieces, even though I still don't feel like my births were ideal by any means, but definitely God is not only always good, he's also always kind.

And there were just so many kindnesses that he showed me in all of that.

And yeah, my postpartum midwife care was definitely one of those.

I love that for you.

And I love that you took that into your hands, that you knew that even though your home birth midwife couldn't perform the surgery for you, she could keep you up until that point and take you as soon as you were done.

Like, yeah, that's really wonderful.

And probably not a thing that most people think about, and not a thing that most people would like line up for themselves.

So that's, I love that.

I love that you do that.

And I love that now other people will know that that's possible.

And that's an option.

Yeah.

I don't think that it's, it's not presented as an option, but you can, you know, I just desire for people to know that they can make their own, they can make their own path, like find something that works for you.

And I didn't, I knew that I wasn't going to be able to have a home birth, but the truth is that again, obese or surgeons, they should be involved as little as possible until absolutely necessary.

So for my fourth and fifth babies, I only involved them when necessary.

And I was able to do the rest because I am low risk and I have healthy pregnancies, I was able to do the rest with a midwife, which is, you know, again, that's the kicker.

Like a lot of people feel differently about their cesareans because there's a medical reason or something with them or the baby that has put them on a path to a cesarean.

But for me, it was just that I'd had too many.

I'd had too many other C-sections.

So unfortunately, like it's been so hard for me to process and let go of because there was no illness or otherwise, you know, there was no condition that was putting me on this path.

It was just the fact that I'd had had too many cesareans.

So were any of your cesareans, probably not the first few quote unquote gentle cesareans?

Or do you want to explain what that term is?

And maybe that that is an option sometimes for some people as well who know ahead of time that they are going to have a C-section.

Yeah, so I did not know what this was when I had Callie, my first, and of course, what I went through with her was not a gentle cesarean.

I didn't say these details when I was telling her story, but when she was born, they immediately took her and Dossie had her in a recovery area.

She was completely separate from me.

I saw her above the curtain when she was born, and then I didn't see her again for almost an hour, I think.

They were still closing me up.

They wheeled me to this recovery area, and it was literally like I was handed a stranger.

I love babies, so I'll hold a stranger's newborn anytime.

But it was just like not that bond that you get when you're immediately able to hold your baby and nurse your baby.

And I was in this weird recovery area and not able to nurse her right then because I had just been stitched up and all these things.

And then I already shared about the Pitocin and things like that.

But with Bubba, I was at a completely different hospital.

So Bubba and all of the rest were born at a different hospital.

And what they do anyway is more gentle.

This is just like their standard practice is to delay the cord clamping.

Sometimes with the gentle cesarean, they will like the whole idea of a gentle cesarean is to make it as close to that bonding moment for mom and baby as possible.

Even though you are in an OR and it is surgery, it's gentle just means like, we're going to put as many of these practices in place as we can to make sure that that bond between mom and baby stays together.

So sometimes they'll do a clear curtain so that you can see baby come out.

I have zero interest in ever doing that.

It freaks me out so bad.

But as soon as they were born, they got wrapped up and then they were just placed right here.

Like Dossie would just hold the baby up by my face so we could snuggle and baby can smell me and I can look at them.

And just that bonding starts immediately.

That oxytocin is flowing and it's like, finally, you've waited nine months to meet your baby and here they are instead of being separated for an hour or longer.

I know some people go longer than that and that's just devastating.

And yeah, the delay cord clamping, what else?

They never, I mean, with Bubba and the others, we were never separated.

Mom and baby were never like, he was with me the whole time.

Dossie like stayed with me while we went back to the, I was wheeled back into the room where I would recover.

Baby stayed in the room with us recovering.

Like they never take them out of the room to do any tests or baths or anything like that.

So all that was kind of part of it.

I'm trying to think if I'm leaving anything out.

One time I did request for them to also let us keep the placenta, not let us.

I can have it if I wanted.

It's mine.

One time I requested that.

That was with Cameron.

So just like different ways that did make it a little bit more, a little bit more birthy, I guess.

That's the way to say it.

And things that people can request are like low light, not not recording the birth for teaching purposes, not having students in the room.

Some people even request like that the OB is not talk unless it's to the mom or that they I'm not really sure how they would do that because they have to talk to each other while they're doing certain things in surgery.

But but not having like casual conversation about their vacation in the middle of your birth.

Right.

Which is what what I experienced with Callie.

I'm pretty sure they were talking about some kind of sporting event.

And I just thought, oh, my goodness, this is another day at work for them.

And I am literally laying here spread eagle under bright lights.

And they are just casually having a conversation.

And yeah, you can have like different music played in the in the OR.

Just again, the delayed core clamping.

I've said that like three times.

I'm sorry.

I'm trying to like remember all the things for a cesarean that you can request.

But yeah, the hospital that I've delivered at has done a really good job of treating you like a mom and not a surgery patient.

And I know I said that with Callie, but it wasn't until I had Bubba and all the rest that I realized, wow, what I went through with her was not, that is not the norm, and it's not what the standard should be.

Even just the same nurse stays with you the whole time, prepping you for surgery, stays with you for two hours afterwards, is checking on you, is checking on baby.

Just that one consistent person being there for the mom, even that is so important.

And it feels a lot like having a midwife that's there with you or having a doula that's there with you.

Yeah, just like that one support person.

I saw a video, I think it must have been on Instagram, like a reel the other day of a mom who had just had a cesarean, and I guess it was a midwife or someone brought the baby right around to her and put the baby face to face.

So like baby's face was laying on her face, and the baby was smiling.

I was like, oh my goodness, this is like, they've got to be just like a couple of minutes old, and this baby was smiling once they got on mom's face.

It was like the sweetest, sweetest thing.

Oh my goodness.

Oh my gosh, that's precious.

Yeah, I loved being able to like just have them.

I mean, we were basically cheek to cheek, even though, I mean, if you can picture like, their head was next to mine, but their body is going the other way, because Dossie was like kind of holding them up to me.

But like both boys were immediately trying to nurse, like they were, their cheek was on mine, and they were just like rooting around.

So that was really cute.

And just seeing what they look like, seeing, smelling them, just all the things that, like I said, you just wait so long for it.

You've waited nine months to hold this bundle.

Well, as we wrap up, do you have any advice or anything that you would say to moms out there who know that they're going to have a c-section, or to any moms about anything, any pregnant moms, what would you say?

Well, I finally shared my story, and I had so many people say, oh my gosh, thank you for sharing.

I've had a similar experience.

And when we believe that we shouldn't share or that our stories are overshadowing somebody else's, we're also, I mean, not only are we not giving God glory where he could be glorified, but also we're potentially robbing somebody else of the experience to feel like, oh, now I'm heard because she went first or now I can relate to this.

So now that person, their healing journey begins.

I mean, there's just so much that we can benefit from that.

So anyways, I had posted some affirmations that I just wanted to share that helped me move on.

So I don't know if I would call it advice, but it helped me, and maybe by reading it, it'll help somebody else who's listening.

So one of them is, well, the first one was that God doesn't always answer with why, but he answers with who.

The next is I made the best decision I could with the information I had at the time.

And there's no right or wrong way to give birth.

So whether you had a C-section, you delivered vaginally, you had drugs, no drugs, hospital, home birth, you birthed your baby, you delivered, you had to fully surrender to bring that baby into the world.

And then this one has helped me a lot, which is your baby's birth, while deeply important is just one day of their beautiful life, you get to enjoy them for the rest of their life.

So our births are meaningful and they are deeply important and we remember them forever, but it is just one day.

And that, in a way, helps me move on because it helped me heal, because I don't have to just let that like overshadow the rest of the beautiful time that I have with them.

I get to enjoy them grow up.

And even if the Lord were to call one of my children home early, like I still enjoyed them for their whole life.

Do you know what I mean?

Like we have to hold things with open hands and they're given to us for a time.

We don't know when that is, but we get to enjoy them for all of that time.

It's not just their birth.

But I do love birth, and I want people to feel heard and heard and taken care of during their births.

And again, I just love your mission with this podcast and with having people on here to share their stories because it's important and we can learn so much from each other.

We really can.

Well, thank you.

Thank you for coming and sharing your story.

I'm super grateful.

I've known bits and pieces of it over the years, but never the full thing.

So this has been great for me, too.

Yeah.

Thanks so much for having me.

And it's funny, too, because I remember after Bubba was born, for some reason, when he was like two weeks old, we were at Daystar, like my brother was getting baptized.

But I say for some reason because traveling two weeks postpartum is something I would never do now.

But at two kids, I was like, oh, totally, we can go to that.

But anyway, I just remember seeing you there and you were like, oh, did you have a VBAC this time?

And I was like, no.

And you're like, well, you could have done it.

You would have done great.

Like, I just remember you encouraging me, like even in that small moment, like you've been like a face and an encouragement for me more than you realize over the years.

So I just wanted to say thank you.

Well, I didn't know that.

So that is wonderful to know.

Yes, God has used you for sure.

Thank you so much for listening to today's episode.

You can reach me at Surrendered Birth Services on Instagram, or email me at contact at surrenderedbirthservices.com.

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We hope you have a great week, and remember, learn all that you can, make the best plans, and then leave it in God's hands.

Yep, I just shoved leftover meatballs in my mouth.

It was, it was really good.

Oh, wait, hold on.

Wait just a second.

Now we're recording.

Sorry about that.

Okay.