061 - An Australian Birth: Showcasing God's Refining Power (with Jessica Finch)

Birth Stories

Oct 21

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SHOW NOTES:

Giving birth in one country isn’t the same as giving birth in another country, even if both countries speak english. It’s always important to know what you’re walking into when you walk into a hospital, no matter where you are, as they can differ from place to place. Jessica learned this first hand with her drastic difference in care from her first birth to her next two. And sometimes, while something seems fine or ok or tolerable in the moment, years later it can hit us, and we end up needing to process through what was done to us (or our babies) long after the fact, as it can impact our future, and specifically, future pregnancies and births. All of this came together to culminate in a Holy Spirit led free-birth, one of which the enemy was trying to steal, kill and destroy all along the way, but Jessica stood her ground in the authority she has in the name of Jesus to have her baby at home. Immediate postpartum, however, didn’t go quite as smoothly, but God was in every detail, and used every moment to create a testimony for Jessica as He called her to share her story for His glory and for the encouragement, education and empowerment of others.

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TRANSCRIPT:

The next day, I had the pitocin drip, and I remember saying, well, what is that?

That was from the first contraction I had, and my midwife said, oh, sorry, is that too high?

I'll turn that down lower for you.

And I was like, wait, you can control this?

And she must have kind of lowered the dose, because then it did kind of not be as intense, but I'm pretty sure that they sneakily turned it up.

And I went from zero centimeters to 10 centimeters in two hours.

What?

Hi, I'm Kayla Heater, follower of Jesus, wife and mother of five children, Christian childbirth educator in Dula, and your host of the Surrendered Birth Stories podcast, where we share God-centered birth stories, evidence-based birth education, and our pursuit of surrendering our birth plans to God.

Let's get started.

Hey, everyone, I hope your week is going great.

My husband actually makes fun of me because whenever I go to do these intros, he's like, I'm Kayla.

Hey, everyone, I hope you're having a great week.

Because I guess I say the same thing every week, but I don't know, it's a new week, but I still hope that you're having a good one.

Anyways, I actually got to go to a birth this weekend, which was fun.

I always love when I get to be with a mama during the most transformative experience of her life.

So cool.

And it was really fun.

It was a hospital birth, but she was trying to labor at home as long as possible before going to the hospital, which is always a little tricky to tell when to leave for the hospital.

But whenever they start to get a little pushy, I'm like, yeah, we should go.

But it was really nice, because we actually went on a two-mile hike outside in the beautiful fall weather during her labor, and it was beautiful.

And we had to go on these trails and these bridges and these like lake overviews.

It was so gorgeous.

And it was like 55 degrees and sunny and breezy and beautiful.

It was just, it was perfect.

She did a great job.

So proud of that, Mom.

We did make it to the hospital.

She did have her baby.

It was wonderful.

And my husband, which is so funny, because he was at home with our five kids, we were supposed to do like a pumpkin patch thing and get our pumpkins.

And we kind of have like this traditional annual family fall day that we do every fall, where we like go get our pumpkins, and we go to this local ice cream shop called Yum Yum's, and we get their pumpkin ice cream.

And then we at the house, they usually make some kind of like pumpkin muffin or pumpkin bread or pumpkin cookie.

It's just like a big fall pumpkin day.

And it's so fun.

And the kids really look forward to it, and so do I.

But then I got called into a birth.

So, you know, we're going to do that in a couple of days.

But my husband is so much braver than I am.

He was like, okay, well, I guess I'm going to take the kids to the zoo.

And he just took all five of our kids to the North Carolina Zoo by himself on a Saturday in the middle of the fall, which to me is like peak zoo season, like so insanely crowded.

But he just did it.

He rocked it.

Five kids, baby, toddler, five-year-old, seven-year-old, and ten-year-old at the zoo by himself.

And that is just so my husband.

He was so just confident in his like, I'm a dad and we're going to go and do things.

It's like, I like to go and do things.

I love to go and do things with my family.

I just like to have my husband with me or like other adults that I know who are going to be there.

So kudos to my incredible husband for holding down the house all day at the zoo and then coming home and putting all the kids to bed.

So love you, babe.

You're great.

Thanks for allowing me to do what I get to do when I go be with these mamas.

All right.

Oh, this week's episode.

So excited for this week's episode.

And actually, if you have forgotten that we started doing a little outtake moments at the very end of every episode, like after I say my outro, there's usually a little outtake.

And I will say 90 percent of the time, my husband says every once in a while, there's just not a moment to have an outtake.

But most of the time there is.

And I'll say stay tuned for this week's outtake, because I get to have a question answered that I've been wondering for literal years.

I've been wondering this and my question finally gets answered in today's outtake.

So don't miss that.

But speaking of today's episode, let's get into it.

Giving birth in one country isn't the same as giving birth in another country.

Even if both countries speak English, it's always important to know what you're walking into when you walk into a hospital, no matter where you are, as they can differ from place to place.

Jessica learned this firsthand with her drastic difference in care from her first birth to her next too.

And sometimes, while something seems fine or okay or tolerable in the moment, years later, it can hit us, and we end up needing to process through what was done to us or to our babies long after the fact, as it can impact our future and specifically future pregnancies and births.

All of this came together to culminate in a Holy Spirit-led free birth, one of which the enemy was trying to steal, kill, and destroy all along the way.

But Jessica stood her ground in the authority she has in the name of Jesus to have her baby at home.

Immediate postpartum, however, didn't go quite as smoothly, but God was in every detail and used every moment to create a testimony for Jessica as He called her to share her story for His glory and for the encouragement, education, and empowerment of others.

Well, welcome to another episode of Surrendered Birth Stories.

I am your host, Kayla Heater, and I am so excited to have Jessica with me today, who I've never met in real life, but so excited to get to know you more today.

So why don't you introduce yourself?

Tell us a little bit about you, your family, where you're from, what your day to day looks like.

Let us get to know you.

Awesome.

Thank you so much.

So I'm Jessica.

I currently am in Perth, Western Australia, and I have been in Australia now for about 14 years.

So I was born in South Africa and moved to New Zealand through all of my 10 years and then came over here.

I am a mum.

I have four kids, one on the way.

I keep forgetting, actually.

It's funny.

I keep being like, oh wait, no, four.

So yeah, I have four kids.

The ages vary.

So I have a 15-year-old, a 12-year-old, a 10-year-old, and one-year-old.

And I am going to be having number five very soon.

So when are you due?

I am due in November.

Oh, yes.

Soon.

Soon, soon.

So that's really cool.

I've been with my amazing husband for 15 years.

We've been married for 12 of those, which is really cool because we actually are both from Africa.

He's from Zimbabwe.

I'm from South Africa.

And then we met in New Zealand.

So it's like, wow.

What are the chances?

What are the chances?

And then, yeah, so we moved over to Australia when our oldest was a year.

And yeah, that's a little bit about my family.

I am currently a stay-at-home mom, and I am absolutely loving just being home with my one-year-old and trying to soak in all of those moments with him and he's just such a blessing.

And it's really cool actually because I was really concerned initially about the age gaps as well.

There's quite a big age gap after three going on to the fourth.

But it's the most beautiful thing ever.

It is so beautiful because we are all able to enjoy him.

We all laugh at him.

We all are able to see all these little moments as opposed to, it's not that crazy house where there's four toddlers or four little ones.

So that's been a huge blessing.

And even just seeing how God had orchestrated that, it's just so, I literally said to my 15-year-old the other day, I am so grateful how the plan was set out in this whole process.

So yeah.

Oh, I love that.

Our kids are all, they're all about like two or three years apart, kind of somewhere in there.

But it's really fun to see my oldest, who's 10, with our youngest, who's about to turn one.

And just like, even though there is that big gap that how much like love there is between the two of them.

Well, let's get into your stories.

So take us back 15 years ago, I guess 16 years ago, and tell us about what it was like getting pregnant for that first time.

Yeah.

So I was a young mom.

I'm sure if you did the math.

I was pretty young at the time.

So 18 when I felt pregnant with my first.

And I think at the time, so this was in New Zealand, and I obviously wasn't married.

And finding out I was pregnant, there was like zero disappointment.

Like it was just a blessing from the beginning.

It was exciting.

I was like, wow, like I actually, this is like transitioning into a new phase of life.

Like especially a lot of my friends kind of would have thought, oh, you don't get to go out with us, and you don't get to do all the fun things.

But I was just so happy about that whole experience.

So at the time, I was still living at home with my mom, and so the support was there.

And yeah, it was just, I remember, to be honest, I actually remember when I found out I was pregnant, I was like, whoa, like I actually get to be a mom.

So there was never this part of me that felt, not even once, oh no, what now?

And I just embraced that journey.

I did whatever I was supposed to.

So I made the calls and contacted the whoevers, and just went through the system how you would think you would at that stage.

I did not know anything better other than to do it that way.

So yeah, that was basically with my first.

And during that time, I guess, looking back now, obviously, I've realized how, you know, what a baby I was.

But at the time, you're like, no, I'm ready, but I had a really good support network, so that was great.

And I was in New Zealand, so I had obviously nothing to compare.

I didn't have any friends who had been through that.

My boyfriend, who is now my husband at the time, we went through the process of obviously getting a midwife, and what do we do now?

So I had an amazing pregnancy.

I had an amazing experience.

It was all exciting from the get-go.

It was all, yeah, let's do the classes, and let's take the pretty photos.

And yeah, so that was basically having those first experiences at that stage and at that age was, yeah, everything about it was just a positive experience.

Obviously, I think closer to the end of that, I was a bit scared about, oh, how am I going to know if I'm in label?

How am I going to know when the baby is ready to come?

So, you know, that was, I guess, a new experience.

So I get, yeah, so going back to it, so that was in New Zealand, and I just again followed, however, the system was set out, and it was a really positive experience in the sense that you get to pick a midwife, and that's who takes care of you through your pregnancy.

And the first one I met at the birth center, so you also have a choice.

Do you want to go to the birth center, or do you want to go to the hospital?

So I was going to go to the birth center, picked a midwife, and I didn't connect with her, because you actually, I realized you have options.

You can kind of interview them, basically, and whoever's available, you can kind of go, oh.

And the first one I didn't really connect with, because it was kind of just by default, because she had met me at the entrance as I walked into the birth center to be like, I need a midwife.

So a friend of the family had recommended someone that they knew.

And I went, okay, cool.

Like, you know, she seemed like, I guess she was from an island.

She was from the island of Fiji.

And she was an older woman.

And she just looked as if she had so much wisdom.

And, you know, something I was, I was drawn to this, like her being from a place where, I guess they didn't have everything firsthand medically.

And I just felt connected to this, like wise woman, so to speak.

Yeah.

And so I was like, yeah, that's who, you know, that's who I'm going with.

So we built an amazing connection.

Everything is actually done at home, except for the birth.

Wait, so do they come to your house for appointments?

Yeah.

Wow.

Wait, and so the one that you picked, is that the one who, like, would be at your birth then?

So it's not just whoever's on call?

Nope.

So she is there.

So she is yours until you have your baby and six weeks after.

She's yours.

That makes a lot of sense.

I love that.

That's not how it is here in the States.

No, and the main thing about that was everything was just funded as well.

So that was not, you know, like a private midwife that you had to sort of outlay anything because you weren't.

Yeah, like it was just part of the care.

So that was really good.

So she was on call to you 24-7.

And, you know, if I felt weird in the middle of the night and thought, oh, I don't know if baby was moving.

She was like, okay, I'm coming with my daughter and I'll come and check.

She'd pop in sometimes just for a cuppa.

And there was that like, you know, like a doula aspect, but she was a midwife as well.

So, you know, sometimes she'd come over and say, can you make me a cheese, toastie and some tea?

And I'm like, you should be making me something.

But yeah, sure.

You know, we had a really good relationship.

And yeah, so that was the experience through the pregnancy.

And so we kept things minimal in regards to scans.

You know, I just went through all of the, I guess, what would you call it?

You know, your 12-week scan where you, where they were checking, and then your 20-week anatomy scan.

And that's it.

I think I had one CTG.

But other than that, like, there was no, nothing intense through the whole process.

And I remember she said to me, and I was wanting to go to the birth center, but there are no doctors.

I don't even think they are nurses, to be honest, in the birth center.

It is midwife.

I'm pretty, I'm not 100% sure, but I'm pretty sure that she said to me, there's no access to any sort of pain relief here.

There is no, like, this is a birth center.

Anything that is required, you have to transfer.

So she just had some concerns, maybe because of me being young and petite, and she was like, oh, I think you should go to the hospital.

I'm not sure if he can handle labor, basically.

She's like, oh, I just feel maybe a bit better.

And I was like, yeah, sure, that's fine.

Anyways, with that, she did say, she said something and it stuck with me, like, through every pregnancy.

She said, because she was never there when they had, when they did the scans.

So she just said to me, if they ever tell you that your baby is too small, don't listen to them.

They will measure you against the Australian New Zealand standard of size.

But that's not your ethnicity.

That's not your body type.

So just don't worry about whatever they say.

So I always remembered that.

And anyways, I kind of had it in my head that I might not handle labor.

So 39 weeks came, and it was pretty much two days before Christmas.

So she was due on the second of Jan.

And yes, so just after the new year.

And two days before Christmas, woke up and I was like, oh, that feels weird, but don't even pay attention, Jess, because remember, if you can't handle this, you're not going to handle labor.

And I told myself that all day.

And Leon at the time was, he started timing and I was like, what are you doing?

Nothing's happening.

It's just, it's okay.

And even in that situation, if you are going to the hospital before you go to hospital, your midwife will come in and check and do a vaginal examination to see if you have dilated or how far you are or whatever it is.

At your house.

Yeah, at home before she says, okay, let's go together, basically.

Cool.

Wow.

That would be amazing.

Yeah.

So, you know, I think on that day, I was like, no, I was in the bath.

I was falling asleep.

I was getting woken up with these cramps and pains.

My mom was home.

And I didn't say anything to anyone because I thought, you can't suck this up, Jess.

You're not going to handle labor.

Right.

So you're not thinking this is labor.

You're just thinking like, oh, I'm having some cramping.

So I need to get it together in order to prepare for labor.

And to be honest, my perception at the time of labor was exactly what's portrayed on the TV in movies.

And so I'm not feeling that.

Excruciating pain, right?

Like, I'm pretty calm.

I've gone in myself.

I am just like, I just, yeah, that's where I was.

And so anyways, I think after about, what was it, maybe seven hours, I was like, this isn't stopping.

Like, okay.

And that's when I contacted her to say, can you just come and tell me what's going on with me?

And she came over and she was like, we have to go to the hospital right now.

You're seven centimeters.

Wow.

Look at you.

I was like, okay.

So yeah, it wasn't until that point.

And I, reflecting back, I think that it's such a mindset because I was telling myself, this is not even labor.

I think I was responding really well to it.

It wasn't until she told me that I was seven centimeters, that I just then was like in so much pain.

I was now like, oh my gosh, the baby's coming.

It felt really chaotic.

We jumped in the car, we headed to the hospital.

And only now do I see that it was because I then knew it's happening, that my whole body went, it's happening.

And anyways, I got to the hospital, and within 40 minutes, she was born.

Wow.

And it was just like, and my husband delivered her, and that's how hands-off she was.

She said, I'm not touching your baby when your baby comes out.

You can get him to catch her when she comes out.

So that was really beautiful and really cool, and how that whole, she just stood back, and she was like, I'm here, but he can do it.

You've got this.

And that's how she was.

At the time, I had just turned 19.

So yeah, that was just a beautiful experience.

I felt all the love, all the care, and it was the best Christmas gift ever.

And the other weird thing that happened was, so after she was born, her weight was by all of the world's standards, is she was small.

So she was 2.26 kilos, which is I think just under five pounds, or about five pounds.

Yeah, pretty small.

She was small at full term.

And if that was in now terms, she would be put into the NICU and special care nursery.

And so they left me with this baby.

And I had an image in my head from how it was, maybe from movies or I think they do this in South Africa, is once the baby is born or the baby is going to the nursery, mom goes to her, what you go in, you've got the nurses essentially looking after babies, and there's this big room full of babies.

So that's what I thought was going to happen.

So I'm like, why are they leaving me?

Alone with your baby?

With this baby, like, why is no one?

And they left me.

Well, they checked on me obviously every so often, but they just gave me the space.

Do you need help with breastfeeding?

Are you okay?

Yup, she's latching good.

And I'm like, how could they leave me?

Like, is someone not meant to take her through the night?

And, and, and, you know, yeah, that was, that was kind of crazy at the time for me.

And I was just annoyed that I was like, I'm not having Christmas dinner in here.

I do not want hospital food for Christmas dinner.

So how long did they make you stay?

She was born the 23rd.

So I was, I came home Christmas morning.

Okay.

And so she was next to me the whole time.

And yes, I came home because I was like, I'm not, I'm not picking what to eat on the tick list.

You can pick, do you want turkey or roast beef?

And I was like, I'm not, I'm going home.

I want real food.

So yeah, that was like, you know, and that was all exciting.

Got home and I enjoyed the hype that was there, my parents and my sibling.

And you know, just everyone just came.

So I loved, I loved that, you know, the funny thing is now during postpartum, I'm like, we need space.

Everybody get away.

Yeah, like no one come.

No, no.

But yeah, at the time that's how it was.

And so it was just like, I was just on this hype and you know, during that process, I was just in such awe that there was this whole person, this beautiful, pure, angelic being that just came and was there.

And I was like, I remember just thinking, if you've had a baby, you have to know there is a God.

Like you do not know that there was nothing inside of you.

And over that time, there was just this, oh my gosh, like it was just beautiful.

And you know, it was, yeah, amazing.

So that was my first experience.

And so that always stuck with me.

And yeah, like it, there was nothing negative that I could say, but I didn't know any better, so to speak.

So yeah, fast forward to, I moved to Australia when she was one.

And then-

So you're, well, you're now husband.

You were so excited to get pregnant and to like go through that whole experience, and it was all super positive for you.

How was he?

Was he also 18 or 19, or?

No, so he's much older than me, sometimes six years, sometimes seven years, depending which time of the year it is, no.

But yeah, he's about seven years older than me.

We were excited because one of the first conversations, I'll always say, when we started dating, and in the first few weeks, I've always known that I've wanted lots and lots of kids.

And so I don't really know that to be a common aspect for a man, to be like, yes, I want lots of babies.

And I remember asking him, I was like, how many kids do you want one day?

When you get married, how many kids do you want?

Because I want a really big family.

And he said, oh, like six or so maybe.

And I was like, really?

Well, I'm cool with five, six, like, and, you know, that was one of the first connections that we had, that we both just seen this like beautiful big family.

So I think for him at the time, maybe there wasn't overwhelm because he didn't have the support system.

His family were in Australia, he was by himself in New Zealand.

So that might have been different.

Maybe when we talk about it now, because we can and we're married, there might have been some apprehension from him because of the age gap.

So he's in his 20s.

I'm only 18 when I fell pregnant.

I guess there was that aspect that maybe concerned him initially.

But during the pregnancy, he was so supportive.

I've never had that many massages ever.

I'd be getting sick and I'm like, go out of here and he'd be right there.

So definitely he was excited.

And I think things just happened really fast for us at that time as well.

So, but yeah, he was an amazing support.

And he's just always been a beautiful dad from that moment.

So was he excited to catch her then when she was born?

Yeah.

I think that it was an aspect maybe we never really deeply spoke about it.

But now all these years, we kind of talk about those moments.

And that as much as they talk about from maiden to mother, there's an aspect for men as well that takes place.

And that changes them.

And we don't often acknowledge that aspect because we carrying the babies and we're birthing the babies and we have to go through this change and transition.

But there is a deep aspect that actually takes place for them as well, where they just, I guess, also have their own experience.

And I definitely seen that in him at the time.

So yeah, definitely there was an excitement there for him.

Cool.

I just wanted to know, but I was just curious about his experience as well.

But okay, so now you guys have a one-year-old and you're moving to Australia.

So I'm assuming your family stayed in New Zealand, and y'all moved to Australia.

So what was the reason for moving to Australia?

Well, the thing was that he was always, before we even got into a serious relationship, he was always moving to Australia anyways, because this is where he had his siblings, and his mom, and his dad, and that was always the end goal for him.

Which me, falling pregnant in between that time, kind of put a bit of a, because I remember saying to him even then, I said, if you want to still go, you can go, I'll be okay.

It's fine.

He's like, of course, I wouldn't leave you, and you're having a baby.

But I kind of was like, I think I was very like, I don't want this to stop you.

We weren't that serious at the time that this happened.

And I was like, oh no, I feel like this kind of might have just had to change the course of your plan.

So Australia was always in the pipeline.

I guess for him.

And so because I then had seen him as like, even though we weren't married, we kind of did have a way in this for life.

And we know that that's where God's taking us anyways.

So I am going to trust you as my leader.

And so I'm, I'm going, you know, I'm, I will wear a family, wear a unit.

That's what we're doing.

And so, yeah, that was basically how it came about, you know, for me to, to move over.

So we moved over when Micah was one.

So that's how, that's how that happened.

And then I fell pregnant with our second, probably a year and a half-ish later.

After you moved, you mean?

Yes.

Yes.

So Micah, the age gap between them was about two years, eight months.

So, yeah.

The next two births, I just will kind of merge them together so that, because they kind of were very similar.

And that's probably why I emphasized how smooth and amazing birth one was, and especially because I was young.

So when I came over to Australia and I fell pregnant with my second daughter, Nehemiah, you know, I was like, oh, this is cool.

This is like, I've been through this before, because I guess like Australia being a bigger country, I was thinking, you know, the resources would be much better.

And so I had it like completely imprinted in my head and a crazy perception that it's going to either be the same or better, basically.

And so I got into the system here, and I was really shocked at just how everything was.

And, you know, it went like just even on the days of, they were like, no, we don't do home advice, I'm like, okay.

And then they were like, you've got to come into the hospital and you've got to book an antenatal appointments and you've, you know, and I would go and I'd sit there.

I had this little toddler with me, and I'd sit there and I'd be there for hours.

I'm like, this feels really backward.

Like it just, you know, are they giving everyone the same times to come in?

And we're all just waiting to be seen, get our weight checked, have our blood pressure done.

You'd walk in and it would, there would be like, every seat would be taken up.

It was just like a clinic that had everyone, and I was like, oh, this is really weird.

But anyways, okay, just go with the jest.

So yeah, that would have been pregnancy two and three.

And then I kind of had the experience where I just did everything that they said and went with whatever appointments they gave me and which scans to do.

And that was the process in which I had gone through.

And it wasn't until I was about, I think about 36 weeks with baby two, first in Australia.

I'm like, oh, baby's small.

And I was like, no, no, no, it's fine.

I'm small.

I've had a small baby before, you know, and because they looked at the weight of baby one.

They were like, yeah, but that's not normal.

And I was like, no, no, everything was fine with that pregnancy.

And, you know, so they were like, yeah, but baby's small.

And I was like, okay, so what do we do?

And that's when they started with, well, we need to have growth scans and we need to look at what's been inducing, because baby has a better chance of thriving outside of your body than inside.

And we think it has something to do with your placenta failing.

So, so they were trying to diagnose you with IUGR.

That's what they started out with, yes.

Intrauterine growth restriction.

Yeah.

Right.

And at the time, I would say everything they said, I took for gold, because again, I'm going to say I was not mature enough to have had the exposure to understand.

You know, I've grown up to always just, I guess, trust the system, they're the professionals or they, you know, and that's how it was.

So I kind of was like, okay, but I was, I couldn't make sense of the one thing they said, which was, your baby would thrive better outside than inside.

And I thought, how?

How is it possible that my baby will thrive better outside earlier than inside, but it should still be growing?

But anyways, and I battled with that for a little bit, and I was probably 21, I think, at the time.

And I was like, what are we gonna do?

And they said, no, we're gonna have to induce you.

So I was like, okay, that's fine.

And how many weeks?

I keep forgetting if it was 37 or 38, but I'm pretty sure 38.

Wow.

Just before 38 weeks.

And I was like, okay.

So I remember going in for that induction, and I was like, I've got this.

I've beaten through labor, and it's all good, and it's gonna be okay.

So I went in there, and they started the night before, and they started the process with the balloon.

I think it's called the foley, you know?

And I was like, okay.

And the next day, they...

The next day, I had the pitocin drip, and from the first moment that they stuck that needle in my arm, I went, what is that?

And I was like, oh my gosh, stop, stop.

What is going on?

It was just the most intense feeling ever.

The contractions?

Yeah.

I just...

There was just pain from every part of me that I was just not expecting.

It just, boom.

And so I remember saying, well, what is that?

That was from the first contraction I had, and my midwife said, oh, sorry, is that too high?

I'll turn that down lower for you.

And I was like, wait, you can control this?

And she must have kind of lowered the dose because then it did kind of not be as intense, but I'm pretty sure that they sneakily turned it up.

And I went from zero centimeters to 10 centimeters in two hours.

What?

That is insane.

I had no break, no breath.

And I remember thinking, gosh, with my first, I was falling asleep in between contractions, like knocked out, falling asleep, and the contraction would wake me up.

And I'd think like hours had passed, but it would only be like five minutes.

For those two hours, I was like, what is that even?

Usually, they're supposed to start you on like a low dose, like the lowest dose, and then increase it incrementally if you're not having contractions or whatever.

But clearly, you were.

That is crazy.

Well, the funny thing is they were running late and behind schedule because my doctor was booked for earlier that morning.

But they were running behind schedule.

So I was probably about four.

I sat just in the bed for four hours waiting for them to start my induction.

So I now realized that they were on a time limit, and they had ramped that up.

So two hours from start to finish was-

That's so dangerous though.

And yeah, and at the time, I just didn't know.

What I did say to Leon from my first birth, I said, if I ever ask for an epidural, do not, under any circumstances, let them give it to me.

I said, even if I am asking for it, I said, look in my eyes and know that I do not want it.

So I remember, I think at some point in those two hours, I was like, I think I need an epidural.

And he just looked at me and he said, you said no.

And I was like, I know.

But everything happened really fast.

But the craziest thing was they did a shift swap of midwives in the middle of that.

So I even thought that that was really strange because I thought a midwife stays like especially one that gets assigned on in that moment or on that day, that they'll stay with you till the baby is born.

And you have your baby, right?

But they changed and someone else came in the room and, hey, I'm your midwife now.

And after the two hours, I got to a point and they obviously would have broken my waters and done the whole, I didn't know what was going on.

It's just felt like real chaos in there.

And I remember saying, I need to push.

And I said, no, you don't.

And I said, I need to push.

And I said, no, you don't need to push.

And my mom was in the room at the time.

And she literally said to my mom, now it's too early.

I don't think she needs to push.

I'm waiting for her to say she needs to poo.

Then I'll know she's ready to push.

And I heard her say that.

And that's when I yelled out, I need to poo.

And I went, oh, okay, I can.

Oh my gosh.

Like you haven't been through birth before.

Right.

Or that I'm not like, my body's not like-

Telling you what to do.

Right.

And within that, like she was born, like not long after that.

And then I was really surprised because when comparing my first in New Zealand, they were really big on skin to skin and having that time.

I remember Leon like pulling my top up quickly, because they just didn't even bother letting her be skin to skin with me.

And he's like pulling up my top quickly, trying to be like, get the baby on her chest.

I know that's what she wants.

And he was kind of trying to be like, what's going on?

This is really different to our first experience.

And then it was real quick.

They were like, right, we need to take her now.

We need to weigh her, check her obs.

And I was like, they took her.

And then they said, why don't you go and have a shower?

Well, you know, get yourself ready.

So I went and had a shower, and then Leon came to help me in a shower.

And he said, oh, they've taken baby down to the nursery.

But they made me sign a form to give her formula because she was really hungry.

I hadn't had her suck on me yet.

They hadn't even given you a chance?

No.

And there was honestly like nothing that she needed medically at the time.

And I said, where is she?

And they said, oh, they've taken her down to the nursery.

But when she was there, she was sucking on her fingers, and they really wanted to, they said she was hungry, and I didn't know what to do, Jess.

So I said, sure, whatever.

Okay.

And he signed for them to give her formula.

And I was like, what?

Okay.

Okay.

And anyways, he helped me in the shower.

And as I came out of the shower, the bedding was stripped.

There was a cleaner in the room.

They started like, and I was like, where is everything?

Where's my baby?

So they were prepping for-

The next person.

Sorry.

Go out.

Yeah.

And when I went down to the nursery, that's when I kind of, and I didn't think too much.

I kind of was just more like, what's going on?

Yeah.

When I went down to the nursery, I gave her feed and then I said, and by the way, you get your room on the floor, and you go into the ward, but she stays here.

And so I had the opposite reaction like, no, what do you mean?

And I said, because she's only 2.3 kilos, which is about five pounds.

She doesn't meet the weight criteria, so she has to stay here.

And, you know, you can't have her in your room, and you will have to come in here and see her.

But she was breathing fine?

She had zero assistance for anything.

She was my biggest baby.

So you're like, clearly she should be with you.

Like, oh my goodness.

Okay.

Wow.

It's funny because this sounds a lot more like America than the last birth.

Right.

Right.

And, you know, I went into my room, and I got up, and I had to be like, okay, God, like, there are things.

Let me find the things to be grateful for.

Like, my baby's here.

It doesn't matter how she got here.

So, you know, I felt peace with that.

And then I was like, she's okay.

That's the most important thing.

It's not about me.

It's about her.

Because obviously I genuinely was scared because of, like I said, I just trusted the way the system worked at the time.

And so, and then I thought, oh, let me be grateful.

At least I can get some final rest and sleep because they don't call you, really.

Like they just tell you, come back every three hours for three hourly feeds.

But you can, you have access 24-7.

So I thought, okay, well, it gives me some time to rest.

And then by day, I think it was day five.

So you get two days stay.

And fortunately, that was such a blessing.

They let me stay longer because they didn't need the room that I was in on the ward.

But I only found out then that if they're not happy to discharge the baby, they will send mom home after two days.

So I said, you're telling me that you would let me leave the hospital without my baby?

And I said, yeah, you know, if we've been here for two days.

But fortunately, I did get to stay the five days while she was in there.

So were they wanting her to gain weight before she left?

We just needed to hit a target, weight target, that's it.

There was nothing from a health perspective.

So again, it was that whole like, we have to give them formula so that they can hit this target.

And that's how you want your baby out of here, we have to do the formula.

So that's what happened.

And I remember one of the midwives saying, oh, we need to give her a pacifier.

And I said, no.

And I think this was day three, and the baby blues kicked in.

And they said, we need to give her a pacifier.

And I said, no, I don't want her to have one.

And they were like, no, she needs one.

If she's in the nursery, we give our babies one.

And at this point, I remember just pulling my eyes out and said, I don't care anymore.

You have the baby.

I wasn't like, I don't want the baby, but I said, I don't care.

You have the baby.

You do whatever you want.

I don't even ask me anymore.

Just have her.

You have her.

You do.

And I just sat in my room and cried, you know, and so that's when I realized that something's not right here, you know.

And then after taking her home after the five days, I felt connected and I loved her.

But there was something weird that was taking place with me.

With my first, I swear I could hear her breathing while I was sleeping.

I could hear her every breath.

Like it was that connected that I could hear her breathing in my sleep.

I was not even sleeping.

With the second, after that experience, she would be screaming and Leon would have to wake me up and say, Jess, can you not hear the baby crying?

And I'm like, no.

And something obviously just did not connect or shut down.

I didn't know about postpartum depression.

I was like, there's something wrong with me because why could I hear one baby while I was sleeping, breathing, and I cannot hear another baby screaming next to me?

There is a disconnect.

It was definitely, and so there was that experience, and I think I didn't say anything for at least a year before I was like, no, I think that there's a thing going on here for me.

And so that was second one, and I didn't do anything medically to heal from that experience, if that makes sense.

I didn't really get officially diagnosed with postpartum depression or anything like that.

And then when Pregnancy 3 came along with my son, I went through the exact same process, but he was induced at 34 weeks for growth restriction.

Wow.

So he was induced at 34 weeks for growth restriction.

And again, I was still in that trusting them.

I just thought maybe I had an off experience, but I was still medically trusting them, if that makes sense.

And I had stayed in the hospital, or he had stayed there for three weeks, so I had to definitely leave him until he gained enough weight.

Right, because he would have been in the NICU.

Yeah.

Right.

They have two opportunities to be released from NICU, which is either you gain the weight and hit the mark, or, and their weight is 2.5 kilos, which I think is, I think is 5 pounds something.

So it's still, I don't know, it's still under 6 pounds, but it's about 5 something.

Or they reach full term in there, basically.

So whichever comes first, often is when you can be discharged.

So he was in the NICU for three weeks.

And then it was this whole like struggle with breastfeeding.

I started to, you know, it's just all of those things, but I never processed any of that during that time.

I never processed any of those experiences.

I just went about life and, you know, just I have these three babies and it's all good.

And I just kind of more so thought, oh, you're so silly, Jess.

You literally just messed yourself up there by comparing.

Because I had this New Zealand, Australia.

So I always just blamed that.

Oh, it's my fault.

I shouldn't have had any expectations and I should have known I was in a different country.

So that's all I had put it down to all these years, basically, was that it's a different country.

And you kind of shot yourself in the foot by holding the standard to another country standard.

And that's where I left it for eight years, basically.

Wow, yeah.

I never went back and processed.

The one thing I just always will remember from all of those three births is I've always said, I will take 20 hours of spontaneous labor over two hours of an induction.

That's all I would say about those experiences.

I'm going, something is really brutal about being induced.

And I would rather have a longer, spontaneous labor than a shorter induction.

It was horrible.

So yeah, those are pretty much the first three kids and how their births played out.

And yeah.

So during all that time, I mean, and I know you've talked, you said that like you didn't process it till later, but with the first experience versus the second two, was there anything you wrestled with with God during that time of like, you know, why did it go this way?

Or how come?

Or why is he too small?

Like, because thinking about, like, even just the weights of the babies and knowing, you know, what your first midwife said, which obviously came out to be very true and accurate.

And it sounds to me like they were perfectly healthy, just smaller sized, because y'all are smaller sized, and which makes perfect sense.

So where were you in your relationship with God throughout those experiences in Australia?

Yeah, so during that time, I never once questioned God from a negative space.

I never was like, why me?

What's going on?

There was no negative anything towards God.

So I just still continued my normal journey, and just my normal spiritual journey, and obviously like prayed that the babies were okay.

So I've actually, as funny as it sounds, I always got the outcome that like God answered my prayer.

I had a baby, they were safe, they were healthy.

I got to meet them, I got to hold them, and I didn't have an experience that I needed to grieve over basically.

Yeah.

And so I never once processed the design of God, and His design for our bodies and as mothers.

Yeah, so nothing in that aspect.

I think I separated the two, but where God came in during those first three births for me, was just more my gratitude for Him, and His amazing idea of how He just did what He did.

Like, how did you just make a baby?

And it was more those aspects.

So spiritually, even though I did have a relationship with God at the time, I'd say there was no part of me that questioned, why me?

How come?

What are you trying to teach me?

What are you trying to show me?

That came, all of that came in the fourth pregnancy, basically.

So during that period, I have always said the one thing that I have been grateful for with having a relationship with God and just knowing Jesus and the power that He holds is that I had access to calling on Him.

So I still had an ability that other moms who don't know Christ isn't able to do.

And that's me just saying, please, God, protect this baby.

Please protect my life.

Please be with me and have that, where I was able to at least have prayer time and say that as an example.

But it wasn't until my fourth pregnancy.

So I fell pregnant in 2022.

This is a whole eight and a half years later, that God really rev...

Like that whole pregnancy was a huge spiritual journey for me.

And that's where I felt I connected with God and the God that was in one, two, and three.

But at the time, it was more just, God was just there as a, please God, can you be with me in my appointment today?

Please God, can your will be done?

Please God, can my baby not die?

Please God, can, you know, it was just more, I'd say, superficial things, so to speak, until I really got deep in fall, basically.

So yeah, that's how I guess, yes.

And yeah, it was just kind of a mundane spiritual journey through those pregnancies, because I was brought up as a Christian and grew up in church.

My parents' queen ministry.

So I had always had the foundation and the exposure.

Like, it just was a part of me, and I'd never deny it, if that makes sense.

But it just didn't have the depth and the revelations as I got older, basically.

I think, yeah, that's how that went for me.

So take us to the fourth then.

How did that all come about?

It's been eight years.

So what happened there?

Yeah.

So eight years, wow.

A little bit of a surprise, a wanted surprise.

Didn't think it was going to happen as quickly as it did.

And, oh my gosh, I was just so happy.

So happy to find out, it was just, like I said, all of my kids were not intentionally planned for when they were, obviously all wanted because we wanted a big family.

But none of them ever was like, let's have a baby and let's try to have a baby.

So even number four was like, yep, next year, I had been on contraception for the eight years.

And I think it was during, just after COVID or during COVID obviously, that I think just woke a lot of people up in certain aspects in life, which then if you were willing to go there, you'd realize a lot of other aspects in life.

And so, it started there for me, that I just really dug deep.

And then by that point, there was, I was like, I need to get off contraception.

Like I cannot have this in my body.

Like I need it done.

So I just thought I would take some time to get my body ready, to heal, to prepare myself.

And I've always been told because of the other pregnancies, you've got to make sure that you have a planned pregnancy so that you can get your body geared up for having a baby.

So I started the process of trying to be healthier and trying to get into that.

And it was not even long, like less than a month after coming off contraception, I was pregnant.

Wow.

And at that moment, I think I was like, I wouldn't say, I was a little like annoyed at God at the time because I was like, come on, like you know what I was trying to do here.

I was willing to have this baby, but you know that I needed this box ticked, and this box ticked, and this box ticked before.

And then I was like, okay, obviously, you know, your say.

And anyways, I was like, okay, I've got some work to do.

And so I dug deep.

And that's when I actually got into Instagram.

So I started.

I've just started connecting with health, mind, body, soul, spirit, you know, just digging deep.

And I can't tell you the exact moment during that pregnancy that I stumbled across a podcast or something that opened my mind.

And I remember saying to Leon, I was like, do you want to know the craziest thing?

I said, you know, some people would think that COVID was like a rabbit hole that you would just keep going, keep going and uncovering and unlocking aspects of life that you just would not have been able to have process.

I was like, the birth world is a rabbit hole, Leon, and I have fallen down.

I was like, I can't stop.

And things started coming.

And it was during that moment that I seeked God and was like, okay, you have to show me, you have to take me to the right pages, to the right podcast.

I am just going to trust you with this process.

But I still was not able to fully let go of the system, so to speak.

So I was still attending the appointments.

And when I was given the same spiel, oh yeah, we need close monitoring.

You're high risk.

I had then become high risk based on past pregnancies.

So I couldn't understand that.

And I said, this is a whole new baby.

It's a whole new placenta.

It's a whole new pregnancy.

That's really unfair that I'm automatically labeled because of the past.

And that's when I was like, no, I am going to take control of this.

And I dug really, really deep and I was still going to every appointment.

This is definitely when my spiritual journey had grown, because I've relied heavily on God's guidance.

And that's when I understand who He made me to be, that I am a mother, that I'm a woman, that He has gifted me with discernment, with intuition, and that He would not have failed my body four times, because I was reminded then that all of these babies were thought of before I even existed.

And so when I started to think on that level, I was like, wow.

And I was like, and God, you're perfect design.

If this fails every time, then that means your design is constantly failing four times in the same person.

The odds of that just didn't really sit right with me at the time.

So then I remember just little things where God would show up, the randomness things.

And I was like, do I even want to give my baby the vaccines that they offer as newborns in the hospital after they were born?

And I was like, oh, I think we're done with childhood immunizations.

That's it with baby four.

And then I thought, but wait, what about that vitamin K one?

Oh, I don't know.

And I was like, how would I even find the resources to know if that one was okay or not?

And it was crazy.

I just prayed.

I was like, God, you have to just show me.

Like, I'm just going to have to just, you can show me.

And I'm not even kidding.

I woke up the next morning, jumped on social media, and the first thing I saw that said, do not let your newborn have this shot.

With vitamin K shot, yeah.

Yeah.

And I was like, whoa.

And I, you know, my husband and I still had to kind of discuss, like, where do we sit with some of these things?

But I was like, well, what's the worst that can happen if we don't?

Anyways, that was just on that little topic, but that was just an indication, well, the principle in that aspect that showed me, if you ask Jess, I will give you the answers for what I want for you, your life, your baby, and your family.

And so I just went with that.

So I studied birth and I studied, and I went through, I spent no time watching television.

I just used up all of my time, and any spare moment, I was so hungry to understand.

And it was only through that pregnancy that I started to realize everything that went wrong with the others, that I started to see all the red flags.

And then I was like, my babies were done in injustice.

I was done in injustice.

Oh my goodness.

And this is eight years later that it felt like, wow, how is it that I'm healing from some traumas that I didn't even know were there during that?

Like I didn't feel like I had any trauma from birth basically.

But all of a sudden, I'm starting to heal from things that, and I was like, okay.

But again, I was still going because I guess maybe there was like that underlining fear still that was there that I might not have worked through.

And one of the things that I will always say was my biggest fear when I found out I was pregnant with the fourth was, I don't know if I can handle giving birth basically.

That was my, because I obviously had the last two inductions.

And I was like, I don't know if I can handle that.

And so that's what actually started me on this.

How would I release that fear of birth?

And that's when I started to open up the whole big birth world.

And it just, I realized there was so much beauty, so much power, wisdom, knowledge, everything in it.

And I could see how much God was removed previously with the way that I was thinking and where I put my trust.

And then I started to be like, no, you made me, you made my baby.

And I said to Leon, I'm going to go through the process of go and do the scans and I'll do whatever needs to be doing.

I said, but we're not having the baby in the hospital.

He was like, what do you mean?

And I was like, I said, I would rather birth this baby on the side of the road than in the hospital.

I then started to fear the system and the hospital and the care teams that were there.

But I still went anyways, because I think there was this, I will say honestly, it was one of the most loneliest journeys I have ever been on in my life, because I had no idea free birth was a thing.

I didn't know it had a name.

I didn't know people even home birthed.

I did not know that you had options.

I just had zero idea.

So I already felt like we can't tell anyone, we can't talk about this.

I just know that, can we just have the baby on the side of the highway, basically?

And that was actually my goal in the end.

I was like, we'll do it on the way to the hospital, and I'll have the baby on the side of the road, and we'll just play like, oopsie.

Whoops, that's where my mom went.

I couldn't help what happened.

So I had that in my head.

And I was going to these appointments weekly, and I would go and I would, it just felt, this is where spiritually those days were dark.

And when I say that, I actually felt like I was, I don't know how else to explain it other than saying, it just felt like such an attack every time I went in.

I would leave almost out of my body.

I'd walked to my car after being told, you might have a stillbirth after being told, your baby doesn't seem to be doing that great.

And every time it just grounded me, kept going.

One, I needed to take radical responsibility, that if anything did happen, it was between me and between God, and that I would trust the process that He wanted me on that path.

And that whatever, even if it ends up being a really dark journey, that I still needed to trust that that was the path that He's called me on.

If anything happened, but I also had to discern, am I having an ego or am I using wisdom?

And not to be too arrogant about no anti-hospital or anything like that, and still to use some wisdom.

So that was a little hard to try and listen out for what that was.

But I knew it was every single Tuesday that I had that appointment.

Every week, one week I'd go for Dopplers, the next week's growth scan, Doppler week growth scan.

And every Tuesday, it's as if I left my body and I'd come home and I could not function, I couldn't do dinner for the kids.

I would crawl into bed and just feel like, like everything, just because of everything they would tell me at the hospital.

So that was hard to have pushed through.

And he was an amazing support at that time.

And one of the biggest things that he said to me that I think just kept me strong, he kept saying, I trust you.

I trust you because I would always look for his validation to say, Leon, what should I do?

This is what they're saying.

How do I know I'm making the right choice?

And so through that, I just kept reminding myself that I needed to, so as soon as I jump in the car, sorry, from being at the hospital, it was about an hour's drive to get home for me.

I would sit in there, yeah.

And I would sit with those emotions for that hour.

Sometimes pulling up in my driveway going, I don't even remember how I got here.

It was just a drive home.

But the one thing I always did as soon as I jumped in the car was play the same worship song.

And it is So Will I by Heal Song.

I just got goosebumps when you said that.

It's such a good song.

And you know, it was that they kept that song through my pregnancy on those appointment days, kept me grounded because I remembered through that song that God of creation.

And I was like, if the plants and the stones and the ocean trust you, I mean, how much more special and important am I to you?

So, so will I, whatever this means.

And so we had to have the honest conversation.

My husband and I, when we had ultimately decided to free birth this baby, we had to have the honest conversation that there's a chance that something could go wrong.

Are we prepared to accept that responsibility?

That's like one.

And I think if you were to speak to anyone who has free birth their babies, that is a huge part of that journey that you have to reckon with.

That is a huge part of that, that you've got to go there.

And people think that it's such an irresponsible choice and an irresponsible decision.

And how could you do something that could, and I'm like, it's probably one of the most responsible, because you're taking responsibility.

You're not just saying like what I did with the other three births.

Okay, if that's what you say, sure.

I guess in the end of the day, when you opt or choose to free birth, you have to go there.

You have to understand your body, how it was made in the way God created the process, and how everything was so thought of.

And I remembered, that's why I fell asleep between contractions, because he created it that way.

I don't know what everyone experiences, but I'm like, you're rested.

So you're ready to take on more.

So even with the whole situation with choosing to free birth, that was my husband and I looked at each other, we said, something goes wrong.

We only have, it only comes back on us, and we just will trust that God has called us to this path, basically.

And once we settled that, there was no stopping us.

So, again, it was a lonely journey because he didn't get into the podcast, or he didn't get into or listen to anything, or so everything was just me sharing with him.

Sometimes I'm like, oh, he must be so sick of me talking about birth, and babies, and hey, he doesn't know that they make us go on our back when actually, dah, dah, dah, dah, you know, and it was, I honestly only learned all of those things about gravity and the way the pelvis works, and I'm like, oh my gosh.

So I started to realize that I could say no.

I started to realize that I actually can say no.

And so that's what I started doing when I would go into the hospital.

So I'd still go for the scans.

And again, one of the biggest things that happened was they said, oh, baby's not growing.

We need to look at induction closer to around about 37 weeks, 38 or 37.

So they then started to, the growth charts though, he stayed in the third percentile, so he was tiny, but consistently growing, but still like in the third, you know.

Right.

And it's what people don't understand.

I'm like, there's an average, there's a percentile, there's a chart for a reason, because to be in the 50th percentile, that means some babies are smaller, and some babies are bigger, and you have one of the smaller babies that factors into the average.

It's like not, you can't have every baby, can't be a 50th percentile baby.

Like it doesn't work out that way.

Exactly.

So with that being said, I was like, whatever.

And it wasn't until like getting to the end, they started to go, oh, look, there's some change in the blood flow and the doctor's.

So that's when I got a little scared, and that's when I'd be really drained from, they were like, oh, I say, what does this mean?

And because I had, I guess, researched a lot of things, both medically and statistics.

So, when they say stillborn and they say doubles your chance, I'm like, you mean by 0.1% double?

To 0.2, yeah.

So there were these things that I was a bit aware of through that process.

So when they started to then kind of say, look, the blood flow is changing, and these are the numbers, and this is what's happening.

Like, give me some time.

Let me go home and have a think about what my next step was.

So how many weeks were you when you and your husband made that decision?

Like, yes, we are going to free birth.

I'll keep going to my appointments, but we're going to free birth, no matter what.

Like, how many weeks were you when you made that decision?

I would say probably about 23 weeks, maybe.

Oh, okay.

So earlier on.

But I still definitely, we are 100 percent, I know it sounds a little, but we were like, we need to keep them in our back pocket, because I didn't feel confident, because as I mentioned, didn't even know there was a thing called free birth.

So I just knew that I wanted to have an oopsie somewhere that was not there.

Yeah.

So I still was tossing about whether it was responsible or not during that time.

Yeah.

And yeah, so when we got sort of closer to the end, and they started saying things about babies, blood flow, the funny thing was every time I went, there were three rooms that you could get a scan in in the hospital.

Every time I went into one particular one, there, I would always get a bad result.

Like, there was, you know, and I remember asking, and I started, I wouldn't say playing them, but I started, I think at a certain point, they knew, I think this girl knows a little bit more than we can say to her.

And I started asking certain questions, and I remember saying, just by the way, can these results ever change?

You know, they said, no, it can only get worse.

So right now, it's as best as it can be in regards to the blood flow.

You know, something's going on with the placenta, and it's starting, it's going to start affecting the baby's brain soon.

So obviously that was like, okay.

And I remember them saying, you know, these numbers don't change, they just could get worse.

I still went home, and I would get in the car, and I would just be praying, and I'm like, God, sometimes I couldn't even pray, because I was just not even there.

But I did know that I had access to at least filling my spirit by listening to worship.

And that's kind of how I got through some of those.

And then when I felt better the next day, that's when I would really go to God.

But then when I'd go back to next week, and I'd go in a different room, I just pretended like nothing would happen.

And I remember one time I went in, and the numbers were different.

And I'm like, yeah, cool.

Okay, everything's fine.

We'll see you next week for another checkup.

And I was like...

And when I went back to next week, I went back into the first room I had initially gone in, and I'm like, yeah, okay, so, you know, we've got this problem.

And I was like, wait a minute, I have to ask you guys something.

They said, what is the big deal?

Why would you not get induced?

Why are you so scared?

And I said, well, because I don't actually feel confident with the information, and I don't actually believe it's accurate because I said, I was here like two weeks ago, and you said this can't change.

Last week, I came back and it had changed.

This week, you're telling me like week one's results, you know, and so in that in itself, I was like, okay, no, we're not doing this.

You know?

It's inconsistent.

Yeah.

And especially when you tell me that there's no way that these results can alter, which then gave me like so much faith in like, yeah, because God can do anything anyways.

And I felt that what I had to realize through this process, I was like, okay, God, what is it that you're trying to do here?

Because I know you don't want me to feel these sucky emotions week in and week out.

And I'm disconnected from my other kids and my family and home.

So what is your purpose here?

Why are you doing this?

And it genuinely, I believe, was to, like, I feel so beautiful.

It genuinely was to move me into this path of some form of birth work.

He's like, Jess, I've given you, like, that this is the path I believe and I have called you to.

Whether it is as a support, whether it is to share, whether it is to write, whether it is to educate, whatever it is.

And I know it hasn't been refined, if that makes sense.

Like, I've not done anything along those lines to even grasp what it is.

But I do know that I would be doing an injustice by keeping it to myself.

Right.

That like, and that's what I felt the conviction of.

And he said to me, and you cannot speak if you don't have the experience.

You cannot share if you haven't had to go through some of the emotions and some of those pain points that I needed you to go through and to push through.

This is where I am building your strength.

I know it's yuck and it doesn't feel good coming home and wanting to jump into bed.

But it's your resilience through that that I need.

Like, this is what women are not able to move past.

So I am calling you on this path.

And I am going to show you what I do in the end.

And so that is what kept me grounded weekend and weekend to go, okay, I have to keep going.

So as hard as it is.

And I still, I knew that I still was like, I couldn't imagine the home birth and, you know, this pretty setting or anything like, it wasn't like I had that planned free birth, like, you know.

And so the last day, 38 weeks, and I would, I then realized, wait, I can connect with my baby as well.

Like it's deep.

And I kept saying, I trust you.

I had my scriptures up on my wall.

I'd see it every single night.

I had my affirmations.

And I started to learn just how to retrain my mind in that.

And so 38 weeks, it was funny.

I went in for, I said to Leon, I know I'm booked in to go back at 39, but 38, I'm done because this is just taking a toll on my last few weeks of relaxing.

Right.

I went in at 38.

She did a scan, and I said, you needed to have been induced like last week.

You need to have this baby.

Can I go up and take you to book in so you can be induced?

And I was like, no.

I have kids at home.

I've got a husband.

I need a tour.

I cannot.

And that's when she blatantly said to me, well, you know, I delivered a still birth on the weekend, and I would hate for that to be you.

And I was like, and I just said, and I already knew, dead baby card.

And I was like, you know what?

That's okay.

That's not my story.

And I am leaving.

I am going home, and I will think about what I need to do, and I will get back to you.

And so I left.

But all through that day, I had this crampy feelings, and I was like, again, told myself, just ignore it.

And probably forgot what spontaneous labor feels like.

No, it had been a minute.

I got home, and my husband went to night shift, and I was like, I was just desperate to get the kids to bed, and I just wanted quiet.

And I started doing really weird things, and I was like, I need just the house tidy.

And I went and ate my dates, and I was like, okay, I'm going to have a bath.

And I started to panic that I had done so much prep through my pregnancy for understanding and uncovering that I had not done any prep for labor birth and how that was going to go, and how I was like, oh, I better practice breathing.

I better practice.

You know, I just had dug so deep into the process and understanding that and I guess fighting, I guess, for what was right and what I believed in, that I was like, oh, what happens when birth comes around?

So I was like, okay, quickly, Jess, light some candles, jump in the bath, put on some relaxing music.

And then I was like, oh, okay.

I better like, you know, bounce on my ball.

And it was just a weird night of me kind of like going.

I've only got two weeks at most, if anything, to do something about this.

So anyways, I had a bath and it was just relaxing.

My mom had just come over from New Zealand at the time.

So she'd only been around for like a couple of days.

My husband went to night shift.

I got the kids to bed and tucked in.

I was like, okay, I should sit down and paint my nails, and just in case, at least my nails might look pretty.

And then as I was bouncing on the ball, I heard a pop.

I was like, what was that?

Oh my gosh, what was that?

And when I sat down on the bed, I was like, I think I just weed.

And I've never experienced my waters breaking.

So I was like, oh no.

And then next minute, I got the show and everything.

And I'm like, oh wait, it's happening.

And so I would definitely say I would have been in labor through that day.

But again, I just chose not to take that.

But you ignored it, right?

And I did think, because I had had a CTG as well at the hospital that very day and a scan.

I thought, well, if I was, they would have picked up some sort of contractions.

Because when I said no to getting induced, she's like, well, can we at least do a stretch and sweep?

And I knew I could say, no one's touching me down there.

Yeah, so by this point, I kind of was like, oh no, I don't have my birth playlist.

So what am I going to do?

And it was funny.

So after, I think, yeah, I was like, I'm not even going to tell Leon that I think my water's broke.

I won't even panic in my work because it could be days and it could be, and I had this idea and I said, for some reason, going back to birth story one, I enjoyed the busyness and the chaos of having everyone there and around.

And I said to Leon, I said, my ideal birth would be to labor alone.

And I said, I would love for you to be sleeping.

And no, I'm just not, I felt like I was being an animal almost.

I was like, I just want to be alone in the dark when it happens.

And I will wake you if I really, really, really, really need you.

But ideally, I actually, I'd love for you to see the baby being born, but I don't need you there the whole time.

So I think I just pushed through all of that.

And I was like, don't panic or anything.

And once my waters broke, I probably like within 10 minutes, I was just, it was insane.

The contractions were just insane.

And I was thinking that that was the start of labor.

You were probably close to the end.

I was like, okay, forget free birth Jess, but get side of the road.

I need to get to this hospital right now, and I need an epidural.

That was my thought.

And I could not get a hold of Leon.

They had changed their break time.

So, I was calling and was on my hands and knees, and I was trying to go on YouTube and trying to put on some worship music, and that wasn't playing.

So I was like, forget that.

And I was just a little scattered, and I was like, okay, this is the beginning.

You are not going to handle this pain.

And then I got my mom.

I was like, okay, you need to rub my back.

You need to push down.

Or for the shower, run me up.

I was like, you know, it wasn't the whole peaceful relaxing, but it was just in that moment.

What I did learn prior through my pregnancy was that it's possible to have a pain-free birth.

And, you know, I started following some of those accounts about how you can achieve that.

And I'm gonna say that it was a pain-free birth.

It was probably in that moment when after the waters broke, that's when, again, I did the exact same thing as I did with my first birth.

It was the knowing.

The mental shift.

The mental shift that I just went, okay, this is labor.

So then everything changed.

However, I now know that I was in transition again.

Right.

At that time, because he came within an hour.

Hey, my mom, Leon, literally walked in probably two to three minutes after baby was born.

And I remember my mom saying, come and lie here.

And I was like, no, I've got this.

And then I just birthed him in the bathroom.

And it was just one of the best experiences and most empowering moments of my entire life.

And when he came out, I, there was no panic.

There was, I didn't like freak out to check if he was breathing, if everything was okay.

I just held him.

And the first thing I said was, thank you, Jesus.

And I just said, thank you, God.

And, you know, by that point, I then looked at him and was like, you're good.

He didn't even cry straight away.

And I realized like, they don't need to.

Like, it was just a whole another experience that, you know, and, and yeah, that was how that happened.

And Leon came in and a little bit of my ego, if I'm honest, took over there.

I was thinking, oh, I wish you got to see me in the most powerful moment of my life.

But I realized that that was just God's way of an intimate moment and that I know and he knows what he was able to do in that space and in that place, you know?

And yeah, it was just...

That's when I was like, I couldn't go back again to giving my power away.

And, you know, so when I fell pregnant with this baby, I kind of took it a bit of a step further.

And it's been a bit of a wild pregnancy.

So compared to scans, I had one scan, and I just needed to know for sure there weren't two in there.

Right.

And that was, you know, that was my only reason for that.

And so again, I felt I needed to...

I said to Lynn, I was like, okay, so we're free birthing again.

Now, I felt like I didn't need the education.

I didn't need to listen to the same podcast again.

And I was like, God, what's the point of this one?

What is it?

And it was like clear as day to me that the Holy Spirit just said to get deeper with me.

So more than anything, I just need to continue to rely on his design, build my faith journey, do this so that I have for my children.

And that just like, it just felt so much deeper as opposed to like, from a logical perspective, like I didn't need to learn how the body works and what will happen, and what the system is like.

I have not gone into any part of how wrong things have been for me in the past, if that makes sense.

It was just more about what is it that I need to do in the space.

It sounds like your fourth, which was your first free birth, was more of like a escaping the system and doing away with all of the injustices that were done to you and your body and your baby, and that you were kind of taking matters into your own hands, trusting the Lord through it, and that this was going to be to show you that like, you can have this experience with you and God without having all of the chaos of the hospital and the systems and stuff, and that he shows you like you can do it, and this was amazing.

And now this one sounds more like it's for him and for you, and like for the two of you together to bond and just continue relationship.

And you're not, it's not like this big escape that you're trying to get out of it, that you're bucking the system.

It's more like we're just, we're in this together, and this is purely to intensify our experience and our relationship with each other and become more intimate between you and the Lord, which is all we can ask for here on this earth, is intimacy with him and to be able to be in his presence and to just hear him, speak with him, listen to him, be with him.

Like, I'm so excited for you, because it's soon.

It's like in a couple of months or less.

Yes, six weeks, I guess, roughly.

Like, you know, it's so hard because people are like, when are you due?

And I'm like, yeah, November, you know.

Right.

No, giving him a month, not a day.

That's good.

And so, you know, it's even little things like, so I grew up and we spoke about this initially, like with the whole Halloween and everything.

And I've always just because of how I was brought up, it was like October seemed really like eerie, dark, spiritual months, just how I was brought up type of thing.

So I'm quite a sentimental person to dates and timelines and everything like that.

I just always had this like, I just can't wait for October to be done and dusted.

And like, because I know my due date so close to Halloween as well.

I was like, God, you're going to be funny, aren't you?

But even then, like whatever happens, like I'm due early November, and going according to like my spontaneous timelines, I don't go full term 40 weeks.

Right.

30 to 39.

So, you know, I was like, God, you're going to be funny, I know.

But either way, it was still that reckoning of, I trust you.

Like, I trust your timeline, because I love how you are able to rewrite stories.

Even if it means you're trying to rewire my spiritual thoughts around that month, because the enemy doesn't own October.

You do, God.

So why am I so, like, caught up on this, like, idea that that's the month that, you know, people are doing spiritual rituals and things that, like, you know, it's just like, it feels just a little dark to me.

But again, because I was not brought up in a culture where I was being exposed to it, just being a fun day of the year, so to speak.

So I grew up with, you know, no, we don't acknowledge this day.

So I always used to just shut my eyes and just wait for that day to be done and dusted when it was, when it would come down to Halloween.

And just not allow my kids to partake in any of it.

Like, I just, you know, if I'm honest, I don't even hand out candy at the door to other kids.

It's like, you know, and everyone has their own convictions around it or how they choose to.

But yeah, so I was kind of like, okay, but I think that, you know, I, it was only the other day that I came to the understanding that I was like, yeah, how could I have actually given the enemy so much power to own a whole month spiritually when you have created every day and in every day you are, I think based on that little drop, I was like, oh, I don't know, maybe baby will come in October.

Well, maybe he'll come in October and rewrite your whole experience and vision around that month.

And now it's your baby's birthday month and something fun to celebrate and a spring baby, because it's spring for y'all there, like that's awesome.

So, yeah, that was a thought that I already processed.

I was like, yeah, so I know I say November, but this part of me, that's like, it'll probably be October.

Yeah, we'll see.

But yeah, I have a few questions.

So because this is I mean, this is awesome.

I'm just loving listening to every part of your story.

I thought whenever you said your mom came over from New Zealand to be with y'all, did she know you were planning a free birth?

Yes.

Okay.

But at the same time, not as like as a planned free birth.

Like she knew how I felt.

She fully supported it and had my back, and she gets everything.

We're on the same page, so to speak.

But if you remember me saying that, you know, birth has its own rabbit, rabbit hole and version of hats.

There was obviously never an opportunity for her to access that.

Yeah.

Do you know?

So, so her understanding, everything I shared, she'd go, I could believe that and I trust what you're saying.

But it's different because that's not where her journey is at.

Something interesting has come up recently.

Funny enough is my mom is pretty petite as well.

And I was born in South Africa.

And I asked her the other day, do you know how much I weighed?

And my mom had a C-section.

And my mom's birth story for both my brother and myself, all these years has been like, I had to have a C-section because my pelvis was too small.

And so my mom had me at full-term 40 weeks.

And I saw my birth card the other day.

And I was, so they said that the baby was too big to fit in her pelvis.

So they had to cut me out.

And I was 2.3 kilos, which is 5 pounds.

And they knew that was my size, by the way.

They just looked at my mom's physique and how they judged that was against her shoe size.

They looked at her foot.

And I said, well, that's as much as your pelvis can open.

So we don't think that it's wise to have a baby naturally.

And we have to have a C-section.

So that is how that was done.

And she trusted.

Right.

She trusted them.

And it was someone that, yeah, she fully trusted them.

And then my mom literally mentioned to me the other day, she goes, and I remember after you were born, the neighbor had a baby and you guys were born like a couple of weeks apart.

And this mom had like a smaller foot than my mom, and a bigger baby than I was.

And she said, how did you have your baby without a C-section?

Because, and my mom was like, I was so confused for years as to how this mom got to do that.

But my mom believed that narrative, and it was only the other day I said, I'm so sorry that happened to you.

But you know that that was not true.

You know, I'm 33.

So 33 years ago, for 33 years, my mom kind of had that whole, just similar to how I for all those years was like, yeah, my body doesn't make good placentas.

So my baby, like, and I would just say that really casually.

So yeah, it's crazy to think.

I was like, so in one country, I was too big, five pounds.

So I had to be cut out.

And in this country, they're like, your baby's too small.

Something's wrong.

So we need to get them out.

Yeah.

Oh my goodness.

Yeah.

So that's crazy.

I'm gonna ask you about your postpartum with the fourth one.

How did that go, having not have to stay at the hospital, not having the whole nursery experience, not having the back and forth and all that kind of stuff, and just being able to be at home with your baby, how did that play into your postpartum?

Okay.

So when I had him and I gave birth, I remember when I said that I had spent so much time trying to fight the system and trying to understand that I didn't really think about, like I just needed the baby to get here safely, and I never processed any aspect after that.

Postpartum with the fourth.

It's a bit of a weird, crazy story, but I would say it was the hardest postpartum I had.

Wow.

Why?

I had kind of then ran into some health issues after.

For yourself?

For myself personally.

And so that's what, again, I think only now maybe is connected to this fifth baby where, so just quickly, so as I mentioned, I didn't think about after the baby was born.

I was like, I've got to get this baby out on the side of the freeway.

That was the plan.

That's it.

On the way to the hospital, because the hospital is about 45 to an hour away.

And all I was praying for was that it happened at night so that it didn't have to be in peak traffic and I was like, okay.

So I hadn't even thought like, what I call an ambulance or what?

Like I just was like, I'm just avoiding an induction.

Basically was my biggest goal in the end of it.

I never processed the placenta coming out.

I never processed what would happen if anything really to be honest.

But I always knew that because I was still in the hospital and in their system that, yeah, I'd probably just for the peace of mind, I would happily, because as I mentioned, I didn't plan a free birth that was like, and then we're going to tuck into bed, and then we're going to, wasn't that kind of a free birth at that time.

You just wanted to have the baby at home and then maybe kind of.

If I wanted to go to the hospital and if I thought.

And when he was born, while I was in that process, my mom was on the phone to the hospital.

And she just said, Oh, you know, Jess has just had the baby.

And so again, I think if I have to be really raw and honest with myself, I had some fear that I might get in trouble for what I did.

Basically, I didn't again, didn't know was a thing, didn't know I had rights, felt a bit shy to be too strong in their face, if that makes sense.

So as soon as the baby came out, I was like, whew, job done.

Like, he's here, he's okay, he's safe.

I did it.

I avoided an induction.

I did not get pressured into anything.

And so I thought I won.

I was like, I won.

And so when, when we called the hospital after, I kind of was a bit like, hey, so the baby's come.

And I said, okay, well, you need to come in.

And I was like, okay, well, can I just go to the closest hospital and just have him checked over?

And they said, no, you've got to come to the one you were assigned to birth at.

So I was like, okay, I'll be there soon.

And I now know why I was not able to go to the other one, although I know that they wouldn't have been able to legally, they wouldn't have been able to have turned me away.

But because they two different hospitals, you know, only one gets funding for, for the person who's registered to birth with them.

So they were like, no, you've got to, you've got to drive.

I said, you know, I'm about 50 minutes away.

And they were like, yeah, that's okay.

Just take your time, lovely.

And, you know, that was the kind of conversation.

So baby still attached to me.

And it's like, you know, after midnight, we're like, okay, let's, it's May in the month of May.

So cold.

Yeah.

Because we're just about to hit winter.

And so I am like, okay, let's go.

So jump in the car and we drive down.

So I'm like, oh yeah, that's right.

I need a bowl in case the placenta comes out.

I was going to say, you haven't delivered your placenta yet.

Wow.

So baby's just on your chest.

Right.

And I, and he's still attached.

And I'm kind of like, oh, I know I'm not going to cut the cord, you know.

So anyways, I then decide, okay, let's let's drive down.

And we drove down to the hospital, and I get there, and I am like proud.

Like I did this.

Especially because I was there.

And I was there that day, so I kind of was like, yeah, like I, you know, did this.

And the funny thing is, through the drive there, I was getting contractions.

Baby was feeding, and I was getting contractions, and I was like, okay, this is pretty intense.

To push out the placenta.

Right.

Yeah.

But it didn't come out, because I, you know, I got to the hospital and I was like, okay.

And I'm not even kidding, but as soon as I got through the door, everything stopped.

I felt nothing.

I felt zero pain, pressure, nothing.

It's as if I didn't have a placenta.

And so I get up to labor and delivery.

And there was a beautiful, God sent American midwife there.

And she, you know, that scripture when you hear of things where you're like, you know, like entertaining angels.

I felt like, are you even real?

You're an angel.

Like, you know, she just protected my space so hugely.

But it was more just the fact that, you know, the doctor came in, and they were like, all right, we're about to give you, I think it's potosin.

Potosin to get the placenta out, yeah.

Potosin out.

And I was like, no, stop.

And so at this point, I was really in a bit of a fighty situation.

And I was like, I did this all by myself at home.

Please don't touch me.

I, you know, and I, and they, and they were like, you have 10 minutes, 10 minutes, and if it's not out, and I was like, can I have some space?

Can I have some quiet time?

And I just couldn't, I just, it just was not coming.

I was just not feeling anything.

And, you know, Sally sat with me in the bathroom, and I just cried and I said, I don't know why it's not working.

It's not coming out.

And she had stalled them for me.

And they'd come back, and they'd say, the doctors would come in and say, you haven't had the placenta out yet.

It needs to be out now.

And, you know, she was like, oh yeah, I've got it.

Like, Jess, we're getting there.

But I think she knew, like, we're not.

And after, you know, four hours almost, they were like, she said, the one thing she said, my mom was in that room praying.

So they kept coming in every five, ten minutes being like now, now, now, now.

And they left me alone with the midwife.

So I started to go into a place of panic.

Like now I felt a little bit more like I had lost control of, I have to do what they say.

Like I shouldn't have come here, but it's a bit like, you know.

So anyways, my mom, which I had a known in that moment and at the time, went down on her knees at the entrance of the hospital room.

And basically say, God, like hold off those doctors from coming back in.

So Jess has the space.

But also speak to us about whether, what we should do in this situation.

Because my mom knew at that point how anti I was.

So I was at this point declining everything that they were trying to do.

So my mom just was like, God, just show us.

And my mom said she heard a whisper that says, trust her.

And my mom came to me and she said, I literally, sorry, before my mom came and said that to me, Sally said to me, she said, and this was the midwife, she said, hey, it's funny, I know you're Christian.

I could hear your mom praying out there, and I could hear you guys, there were moments in the room that we would just like, just kind of please the blood of Jesus basically.

And she said, I'm a Christian too.

And it's like, oh, cool.

You know, that's cool, nice.

And she said, and I just want to say, I've had multiple home birth.

I understand you.

And that just was so, like, I'm gonna say God breathed in that moment because I never told her anything.

And there was just this spiritual connection and moment of where it was like God was just giving me this peace to go, don't put your hands up and try and fight Jess.

This is who I have placed here in this room, in this moment, in this hospital to just help you right now.

So anyways, when Sally said, I said, what would you do if you know where I'm at in my journey mentally and why this is playing out this way?

What would you do?

And she said, oh, by this point, I probably will take it.

So then I surrendered and I did.

And then, yeah, the placenta came after some tugging and some pulling and everything like that.

So that was really like hard for me because I then processed and felt like, not that I failed, but I went, gosh, I prepped so hard, but didn't think about after birth.

After, right?

And even then I realized, I left my birth space.

I left my safe, sacred space because I didn't really put the two together.

I thought I did the best job at first.

It was only half of it.

And I'm like, oh, why did I do that?

That was probably like I felt really foolish after.

Because the next thing that happened was they said, how are you feeling?

And I said, I'm feeling good.

And then it started with my blood pressure.

And they were like, your blood pressure is just not normal.

It was so high.

It was high?

And I didn't understand blood pressure.

And they just looked at me and they said, we're about to call a code blue, because you're about to have a stroke or a seizure.

And I'm like, what?

So even that experience, it was extremely high.

My blood pressure went up, like at the time was 196.

Wow.

100, I guess.

So I was so scared.

I was like, what does that even mean?

Anyways, through that process and through that journey, I then got admitted.

So he did, as a free birth baby, end up in the NICU.

Then there was a new fight that started.

I had to be like, he's not your baby.

He wasn't born here.

Because they started to do the whole, like, throwing breastfeed, he's only little.

And when I got discharged from hospital, they wanted to still keep him in for his weight.

And I had to fight.

But again, going back to that experience, it was, I reflect back at it.

And again, see what God was doing.

It was probably during that time that I maybe questioned God.

Not who he is, but what are you doing?

Like, you perfectly orchestrated everything to this moment that I nearly thought I might lose my life or that, you know, like, what was the point in that?

And then you took me out of a moment where I was like, didn't need to fight them.

But then all of a sudden I'm back here fighting them, fighting to let me breastfeed.

Like, how is this even possible?

Like, what are you doing, God?

And it took me months and months and months to process, to the point that it kind of gave me a little bit of fear to fall pregnant again.

Because then they started saying, you know, I ended up in hospital again a few days later.

And then they were like, we think it's postpartum preeclampsia.

So I started to beat myself up a little bit, and then started to doubt that when I did the free birth that maybe that was irresponsible.

Maybe, like, what if I didn't go into the hospital?

And then I kind of almost was like, lucky I did.

And it was such a confusing part of that story to process.

And then I got scared.

Like, I was scared to fall pregnant, because what if this happens again?

It was just really like probably that was hard.

But again, coming to this part where I then find out I'm pregnant with baby five, again, I was reminded, Jess, because you needed to go through some things.

I needed to take you to all of those places and spaces for ultimately what I have planned for you.

Do you still trust me?

So again, like the song, So Will I, will you, no matter what, no matter what you go through, will you, and I never once blamed God for what happened after.

I just was confused.

I was just like, how was I, how did I do what I think I was supposed to do, get it right, and then it kind of turned wrong in the end.

And that's something that I feel often, if I'm honest, like what that postpartum experience, I have managed to not connect the two birth and postpartum and merge them together.

I am still a huge advocate for free birth.

Yes, initially, I was a bit scared, and I had tossed about, you know, but again, it was something that it's like kind of like going through that refining fire.

Like that's what I had to go through this pregnancy, where it was like, do you trust me?

This is a spiritual journey.

I'm about to take you on.

So, you know, I openly share about the free birth that I had with number four, and I openly share about the experience that I had postpartum health wise with myself.

Initially, I did not put the two together because I still needed to try and process what happened.

I still needed to make sense.

Did it have to do with me going into the hospital in that moment?

Did my blood pressure spike because of changing environment?

Was there an effect in the ptosin shot that could have caused that in that moment to spike up?

Did the stress of me feeling like, you know, there were so many things that I had then had to try and process before I put them together?

Because the last thing that I wanted was for any mom who's about to make some kind of a choice like that, to bundle that together as an experience, which would then maybe alter how they are experiencing or feeling that.

And so I've been, I wouldn't even say withholding anything.

I'm super open about it.

But I know now during this pregnancy that it was not a connected experience.

It was two separate experiences that I think I needed to, because I don't think I've ever prayed that hard in my postpartum to get home to my other babies.

I don't think I have ever declared as much as I did that I will be well.

I didn't sat with worship music consistently in my ears because I was so scared at that time.

And so that was that postpartum experience was, it was, it was, I don't know how to put it into words when I say, I separate the two because I don't believe that they intertwined.

Yes, it was the same experience.

If that was like a definite divide between the two of them.

There was a definite line between that.

And I think even when I reflect back, to be honest, like the postpartum story in the hospital and in that room goes very deep spiritually.

But sometimes I kind of think, oh, I don't know if it's like if you weren't there, not you personally, just, you know, when my husband and I talk about it, it's like do you even understand the spiritual war that was going on in that room, in that moment.

From me just feeling certain spiritual presence in that room, it felt like a battle for my life, that I was physically witnessing, watching, and experiencing through, you know, and the funniest thing ever was that at a certain moment, you know, the midwife kind of like just after her job was done, she was not there anymore.

And, you know, she had maybe it was end of shift or I was like, it genuinely felt like she was like just this angel that came into the room for that moment.

And that's what I, you know, like, yeah.

So, yeah, the postpartum experience was different, if that makes sense.

And I think sometimes I wouldn't say still try and process what happened.

It was the clarification it gave me in this pregnancy that this pregnancy is a deep spiritual journey of trust.

And it was a different type of trust.

There's no trust in me at all.

It's not, I trust my body and my body was made to do this situation like it was, you know, last pregnancy.

This is a god.

I trust you.

Like you are the only one who can get me through this, basically.

Because to be honest, I've made the decision not to even have a single blood pressure reading during this pregnancy, which I know might sound like, I know even women that have wild pregnancies sometimes still take their blood pressure, at least, just to monitor.

But I was like, no, god, like I'm not doing that because I'm scared.

It's like, I'm just doing this in full force trust of you.

Like that, you know, yeah.

So that was a little bit of the crazy side of that postpartum experience.

But yeah, I just want to, I guess, be clear that the two aspects, it's just a defining line.

It was two different experiences.

Well, it sounds like this shift happened when you left the environment, when you left your home, when you left because you were having contractions.

It sounds like your body was trying to push the placenta out.

And then, like you said, as soon as you arrived at the hospital, everything stopped, which makes sense, because a lot of times that can happen when you're in labor, too, if someone's having really good contractions at home, and then they get to the hospital, and it all stops.

So knowing all of that, what are your plans for after you have your fifth baby?

Will you be staying at home or?

Unless, intuitively, God puts something on me that I feel I will be listening to His guidance through that process.

Yeah.

But the way I envision and imagine it is after the baby's born, we are going to do the snuggles in bed and have that, like, there's, you know, like, I don't, I don't feel like nothing is piquing me at the moment to be like, oh, I least need to know that X, Y, and Z is okay.

You know?

So, yeah, so, a definite, by definition of how most free birthers choose to, and they plan their postpartum, which I never did the last time.

And that's what I kind of felt.

I kind of felt like because I didn't plan or even think about it, or give a thought, or question, or ask it, I kind of almost left it out in the spiritual realm to have a field day in whichever way.

But either way, it's one of those like, all things work together for good anyways.

So God was going to show up regardless, but I did probably not put it in his hands for what was going to happen postpartum.

So that's time around.

You are.

I have.

I have.

And even then, it's still, but it's still having the ability to say, okay, God, if something feels off, guide me.

Show me.

Speak to me.

You'll be listening.

Yeah.

I trust you.

So yeah, that's the difference.

I guess this postpartum, and I'm still so grateful.

All of my kids are, they were all tiny.

My biggest thing.

Like, yeah, I never even hit a six-pounder ever.

So they are all healthy.

My girls are taller than me.

They are thriving.

It's just like, wow.

And again, just that revelation of going, God, you wouldn't...

They are yours.

Like, thank you for that.

But I've just learned as a mom now to trust him.

And my daughters have spoken about birthing at home, and we speak about birth openly.

I respect them enough to give them the choice to say, hey, do you want to be there?

I'd love for you to see that as normal.

I'd love for you to know that this is an aspect of how God has made...

You know, like, we've always been open with even menstruation and menstrual cycle from when my girls were really young.

And, you know, someone asked me the other day, oh, how do you even talk to your kids about that?

And I said, you know, from when they were like one and two, they'd come in the bathroom with me, and I'd be honest.

And when I asked a question, I remember just saying, oh, that's just God's way of letting mommy's body know that you're healthy enough to have a baby, you know, and I've just always had that there.

So I want to be able to make that normal.

I want to be able to make birth normal for my girls.

And I think just start to change that because to be honest, where I live, where I'm from, it's not a common thing.

I don't have any friends who are sort of, you know, maybe now I'm starting to, as I'm talking to women, might find that more women are actually open and receptive, but no one's really forthcoming with.

Anyone who chooses to do that, that's totally okay, obviously.

But for myself personally, that's what I thought it was.

Everyone just comes and there's lots of people, and you know, now I'm like, I want that sacred soft space to just feel God in that as well, because I think that, yeah, it's one of the most, and I'm sure as a mom, you know, when you...

Look at your babies, especially as soon as they're born.

Like, I just, I sometimes just, even my husband and I with the fourth, like, they're like, wow, sometimes it looks like he's, he's still in the heavens.

Like, I feel like he's so pure.

Like, it's just like he can, he has, like, I feel like God's literally, like, right there in front of me, through him.

And yeah, so, yeah, definitely this postpartum is going to look different.

Jessica, I've loved all of this.

It's been just an honor to hear your entire journey from, you know, being 18 and getting pregnant in New Zealand, and then a couple years later, Australia, and then eight years later, you know, all the processing that's happened in your fourth and now your fifth.

This is, this has been wonderful.

And, and so many things that you said, I'm just like, oh, yeah, yes, yeah.

And like even when you're talking about, like, your fourth, and you would go to appointments, even though you're planning a free birth, and you would feel like what I would describe as like demonic oppression, like just like being in that environment and fighting the system that has made birth so ungodly and so, you know, man controlled and medicalized and, and all these things.

And just like talking about your journey through fighting through that and, and like fighting like with worship, with prayer, with God.

Like I got goosebumps so many times, and I'm just sitting over here, like I'm so excited for what's to come for you for this upcoming, you know, fifth labor and delivery and postpartum.

And then how this is going to impact your story and other women's stories and their births as you figure out like, what God is calling you to in terms of birth work or just, you know, being able to share and educate other women about, there are other ways and there are other choices, and you don't have to go through this system.

So I'm just so, so grateful that you took the time because I know it's late there.

It's like midnight there now.

So you're probably about to go to bed, but just so grateful.

Thank you so much for this.

No, thank you.

I really appreciate the time that you've given.

I, yeah, and this opportunity to have, to be able to just share that, like you said, the whole journey.

And I know it's a lot because it's a lot of kids.

No, yeah.

Yes.

Yeah, so, yeah, no, I'm really grateful.

And I, you know, I just would like to say, for anyone that is listening, is that in the end of the day, it's your journey, and it's your story.

And I think we have access to being able to choose what we feed our minds and our spirits.

And, you know, sometimes, obviously, everyone works differently.

So some people, you know, it can impact a little bit more and others that haven't an ability to separate themselves and then kind of just go that, well, that's not my story or that's not my journey.

And so, yeah, so for any moms or dads or anyone, I definitely do encourage you, just like, you know, I guess as Christians, especially, we have to make choices of what we listen to or what we watch or what we, and in the same way, I would, because birth is so sacred and it's so beautiful and it's such a process from, you know, from, if you even think about it, from the way God designed for you and your spouse or your partner to meet, and the love that then comes, and then out of all of that whole journey to ultimately coming out with a beautiful baby in the end, that whole process is just so carefully orchestrated from the beginning.

And so in that, it's to just look at birth and going on that journey as sacred and special that you would need to choose who you allow into that space.

And that doesn't only mean literally, like I don't mean like who you permit within your perimeter of birth in itself.

I just mean even with the things that you feed your mind with in regards to other people's stories.

I feel sometimes that we might, especially when we've had a negative experience, we might look for validation in other negative experiences in birth so that we don't feel like we were the only ones who has been through that.

And I had gone through that process with the whole situation with my blood pressure.

Oh, how many other moms have been through this?

And did that and how did it end for them?

But all that did was it kept me in a place of being stuck and riddled with anxiety.

But instead, I think there's so much truth in like seek out the positive birth stories.

And that's one reason why sometimes I don't necessarily throw out my postpartum experience with baby number four, because I feel like sometimes I have to gauge, not judge, but just gauge that that could impact someone in a way that is not really that positive because it could kind of like, maybe, I guess, stir up some concern or fear in them.

And so hence why I'm saying like, it's so important in the birth space to just one, as followers of Christ to go, I cut that off.

I choose not to engage with that.

That is not my journey.

That is not my story.

And I can have a sense of connection and empathy towards that person and their situation.

So yeah, definitely that's one thing that I would encourage anyone who is pregnant or about to have a baby.

And that's how I think I've gotten through with this pregnancy.

I've unfollowed a lot of the pages that were validating that postpartum for me and making me feel like, oh yeah, well, that is something that could happen.

So and not being ignorant to it or trying to avoid the reality of some situations.

But sometimes we don't realize that our mind is so powerful.

And if we don't have the ability to consistently renew and cleanse that space, sometimes we so subconsciously are taking on things that we don't even realize that it becomes a part of us.

And then it plays out in that.

So, you know, that's, yeah, that's like my biggest thing.

So I've even made some choices for myself as to what I will take on.

Your journey is unique.

It's special.

It's important to God.

And even if there's what seems to be a negative experience by our definition or impact, just always be reminded in the end of the day that he loves us so much.

He will never intentionally cause us any pain or harm that has no purpose in the end, but where we get to see the beauty of who he is.

And so, you know, especially as a free birther, whatever it is that you might need to reckon with at a certain point, it's always going to be beautiful in the end.

And, you know, we might not see it immediately, but one day, in every birthing situation, I think if we truly gave that opportunity to be like, Wow, God, you were so amazing.

You know, so, yeah, that's definitely something that I just would love to leave with anyone listening.

Well, thank you.

I think that is beautiful and wise.

And I hope women and men who are listening to this will take it to heart.

Thank you so much for listening to today's episode.

You can reach me at Surrendered Birth Services on Instagram or email me at contact at surrenderedbirthservices.com.

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We hope you have a great week, and remember, learn all that you can, make the best plans, and then leave it in God's hands.

Now, I've literally wondered this my whole life, but I've never thought to ask anybody, because I do know a couple of people from Australia here, but I don't know.

So our Christmas carols, our Christmas songs are all about like, you know, the weather outside is frightful, let it snow, let it snow, let it snow, cozy up by a fire, chestnuts roasting, like all those things.

So do y'all have Christmas carols that are about like warm weather?

No, we sing those ones.

Even, that's crazy to me.

I'm like, why would, that doesn't make any sense.

That's so funny.

We sing those ones.

And it's so weird.

I don't know if like this part of the world has somewhat adopted American culture and how they do things.

I know a lot of people would like, when they're prepping for Christmas and wrapping presents, put on like, you know, how you could now get like on YouTube, like fireplaces or like fire burning type of thing.

So that's what they'd have on their TV and kind of, it's weird.

I know actually.

And that's interesting that you've asked because I've never thought about it like.

Wow.

hospital birthfree birth

Kayla Heeter

061 - An Australian Birth: Showcasing God's Refining Power (with Jessica Finch)

062 -Comparing and Contrasting Birth Environments (with Louisa Brown)

060 - Trusting God Through Life's Twists and Turns (with Meghan Dougherty)